acexxxoasis

So here is my question I have a 94 coupe, with d16z6 and si trans. For about 2 grand I can either swap, build, or light build.
I can fully build my z6 to 11.5:1 gnarly cam and such and be a peppy little dd
Or pick up a b16a swap and leave it completely stock
Or pick up a b18 block grab a vtec head and make a ls/v with a gsr or b16 trans
Trouble is I know what each is capable of dseries maxes out around 150 whp
B16 maxes around 160 stock but is known for trans problems and is also kind of looked down on anymore
Ls/v has the torque and pep But have been termed unreliable if done "ghetto"

I've contemplated b20/v but without extensive mods isn't that great of a driveline (low revs different piston size, low comp etc)
So which is the best return on your investment?(if you will?)

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

I'll speak only to the tech part of your questions with one of my own. Where are you getting these "max" erroneous horsepower figures.

acexxxoasis

Erroneous? What is in error? 150 whp n/a out of a d-series is capable. B16a stock came with between 158-168 hp STOCK and I'm pretty sure that is crank horsepower, the only 2 actual numbers I have used so 160 on a STOCK 16 year old engine isn't bad... My "erroneous numbers are from watching dyno runs of my friends cars and such"

Libertariat

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot by trying to go n/a with 1.6L engines? Not to mention a single cam. You'd be a lot better off with a good transmission and an engine with higher displacement.

Still not sure where this thread is going, polling for engine swaps is not something we want in the "Technical" subforum. This is a forum for technical questions only. If you'd like to propose a build the GDD forum and the build forums are both pretty active.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

D-series engines (rods) can handle about 220hp and B-series a little more than 300. YOUR error is that you are equating MAX horsepower to the upper end of power that you can coax out of these engines in an N/A state. That doesn't mean that is the MAX horsepower the engine is capable of.

acexxxoasis

I'm not trying to shoot myself in the foot, I know boost is great I had a awd dsm. I just want a peppy little car that I can drive around and have fun. I don't want to boost. I'm not looking to race, I have about 2 grand to spend I want more power then the 130 crank hp my car has.

And I understand 200 is about the limit on stock d rods but I just do not want to boost for my own reasons, just 1 more psi... Well I need this... One more psi I need this too... Till I have 30 psi, water meth, forged internals, cams etc and blow a hole in the slug cause of balance belts...

kyden

it's a losing battle with an n/a d series. start with something of more displacement.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Will need more than two grand. See the link in my sig? Click it and go to the dyno section. Then cruise those threads and see what it takes to make N/A power.

This thread needs to go in the All-Motor section.

acexxxoasis

I know how to make power n/a and boost... I figured since I'm asking about it in a eg chassis the eg forum would be applicable my bad if it's in the wrong place, and I understand d-series n/a is a "waste" hence my other 2 main options or my 3rd option... Which would both be better for future n/a building...

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

This is also a tech forum. This isn't a tech question. You can build anything so it matters not in the slightest which one is "better" since that all depends on your skill at building engines and how much power you can coax out of them. IMO, they'll all be slow so it really makes no difference.

creep403

If your looking for N/A and fun and peppy... I'd say a B16 just for the rev's but I might be saying that cause Im selling one

tico

im not trying to thread jack but alot of people always say the same thing about single cam builds that they are pointless. every honda i know or see at meats ect is running b at the minimum. the best way to make good power is raise compression free up rotational drag, following good a/f flow and exhaust flow. a well done valve train and a tune and u can get that single cam over 160. do your homework. when it comes to cams ur lift and duration will make or break u. bigger is not always better. u want someting streetable then a cam with a slightly higher lift and duration is perfect.. do ur math to much lift and ull sstart hitting valves.. im in the process of a Z6 build right now. doing my math ill be able to keep up with my buddies lsv putting 194 to the wheels. power to weight ratio and a good driver lo. and before anyone wants to start their **** about single cams, please do real homework and research on how to make powere before u open ur mouths

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

No one is disputing the fact that you can make power with an N/A build. But with an all motor build you're limited and they can become very expensive very quickly. It's just not cost effective for the amount of horsepower you gain.

acexxxoasis

Thanks to mod for moving to proper section


@grumblemarc that was not a question. I was stating that the b16-b18v-b20v would all be superior for an n/a build over the single slammer. Thank you all for trying to help me with this even if it is out of proper section. I came here over d-series.org because obviously they are biased toward d series over b series.

I was strictly trying to figure out what would the better engine choice be for an eg coupe, built d16, stock b16a, ls vtec, b20 vtec. All would be around 150-170 hp

Obviously larger displacement = more tq this is not how much power can be squeezed out, or NA vs boost. Just which would be the preffered choice.

Dseries pros- less weight, already own it.
Cons- weak rods, single cam no independent cam adjustment

B16 pros- relatively cheap, decent power, RPM's
Cons weak trans, low tq, weight

Ls v pros- tq and RPM's, not bad $ wise
Cons- can be unreliable, has to be built prior to install, weight

B20 v pros-tq up the butt, better r/s ratio, cheaper then b16 ls v
Cons- low RPM's, weight, has to be built with many aftermarket parts to be great engine.

Libertariat

"better" is a subjective term. People will argue on any forum for days about what engine is better for whatever. It's really a poor question.

acexxxoasis

I'm just trying to do research to help narrow my decision of which engine is a good choice I was hoping for a few different answers however what I have got mainly is n/a is slow and expensive something I was well aware of.

acexxxoasis

Anyone else want to chime in?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Please see my comments in BOLD regarding your quoted post.

acexxxoasis

I am aware rpm does not = power
D series is what I have in my car.
Maybe I am misguided in the weight difference I thought it was around 100Lbs difference... Maybe I'm wrong however slight weight increase for a 30-50hp jump is ok by me.
On the b16 trans I have seen many a thread about synchro issues grinding and popping out of gear. Maybe from incorrect linkage, considering most manual transmission problems are due to improper adjustment. But what do I know?

I've read build a reliable b20/ls v and many other threads on the subject of building a reliable b...

My issue with the b20 is after arp head studs and rod bolts, you're still stuck with low comp stock pistons unless you use aftermarket pistons or machine a lot off your head/block and the fact you might as well sleeve it if your running high combustion pressure (either boost or hi comp) then you will need decent cams and retainer and springs to make power with it (which is part of a good build anyway) but the only thing cheap about b20 is the block....

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

again, your info on so-called "weak" b16 transmissions is completely unfounded. all the b-series transmissions use the same materials , none is "weaker" than the other. if these people on the forums you are reading are complaining about that, then honestly, they just can't drive.. plain and simple.. haha

getting good power is not cheap, no matter how you slice it. you can't both make good NA power AND be cheap.. t won't happen on a B-series, much less some dirty D.

if expense is the only criteria you can base any informed decision on..I'm sorry to say, modding Hondas just isn't for you. especially with the horrible misinformation you possess right now.

Jdubbs6101

Well when it comes to engine building you have to ask honestly what are your goals for the car......if you just want an easy low maintenance bump in hp go get the b16 and put I/h/e and de the crap out of it if you want to get a little crazier go with the 84x89mm build but with that you incur a lot of added expense...

acexxxoasis

Cheap, fast, reliable you can have 2...
Again I'm not talking about a full built motor

I was speaking on which is a more cost effective option to start with to make a fun dd
A built d (which is stupid to everyone here)
A stock b16
A properly built ls vtec not high compression just a fair build to start with
A properly built b20 vtec again not super built just a good start to further plans

Again properly built to me is lsv kit, arp rod bolts, arp head studs, rings, hone, and freshen up with new parts. Then when the time comes I can either turbo or build it n/a properly

I understand modifying cars is expensive, this is not my first go around with modifying a vehicle... 2-3k for a swap is not bad it's no k which are still at 4-6 grand not an ideal amount to spend on a 1000 dollar 16 year old budget car.

I have yet to see more then two fair answers on the actual question.
Which is on a budget of 2-3000 for the swap or to build it to be a reliable "stock" engine aside from the d series. Better yet scratch the ls/v make it a gsr cause it's pretty much the same thing.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

My friend. You're NOT going to get a solid answer from this question. Its just to personally preferential. I'm glad this isn't your first rodeo, but you're looking for the silver bullet, and unfortunately, it doesn't exist. You can make your argument as circular as you'd like, but in the end, what is one person's trash is another's treasure.

There are generally better platforms to start with when it comes to the decision of B/D/K/F/J series, etc. But at this point, since you're changing parts out anyway, in many cases, you're just splitting atoms here...

Try and look at it from an objective standpoint of your available resources, needs, availability of parts, and compare them with other setups that use the same (or similar) parts that you plan to use. Then go from there. But you're not going to get a clear cut decision on ONE platform from this forum.. There are just too many possibilities.

A lot of us that perform the additional measure of studs, or mains or other supplemental equipment do it because we don't want to perform these operations again, or use as a "just in case" factor. They've already accounted for it in their budget, so they believe that its not as much an option as it is a necessity.

There are plenty of those that don't perform these extra measures and survive fine. But they also don't mind taking things apart again to do them when they want to upgrade. They're also a bit more informed than you are about the subtleties of the components that are available for your build. Once you step your game up in that department a bit better, so that you're more informed, you'll make a more informed personal decision, and not rely so much on a consensus of others.

I'm off the soap box, so do what you want, but just letting you know, this methodology is not going to net you the results you're looking for. Either way, be it LS/V, B20/VTEC or GS-R, you can't go wrong.. but the d-series stuff is just a lot of work.

EsotericImage

iTrader: (8)

acexxxoasis

The reason I ask on these forums is the fact that where I now live in s/e Wisconsin there are not a lot of Honda heads, coming from so cal to Midwest was a huge shock in availability of performance oriented shops that know how to deal with a Honda. I have built quite a few engines, from 454's 350's f22b, d series, 4g63s, etc etc. I will be doing 90% of the work myself if in Cali I would even do the machining. But I'm not so I will be leaving that to the machine shop. Now I understand it is a subjective question, I happen to love working on my cars, and pulling the engine out and apart to re do somethings is not a problem for me. The reasoning for the question is that I am strictly doing research, there is no replacement for displacement, I am well aware of that.

A b16 is a high revving small displacement engine that has a huge following with parts support and such have seen many b16 turbo'd lay down 400+ and spin tires on a dyno at vtec...
A gsr/ls vtec is larger displacement that has ability to rev pretty high build good power and have the tq to launch the car very well, makes a lot of power if turbo the downside to the ls/v is it needs to be built prior to anything which scares some off. And have been deemed "unreliable" due to skipping steps
A b20 vtec again needs to be built the revs aren't that great however the tq is a flat line that just goes up again turbos great with a nice low comp, has the displacement, to be a fair n/a build with a good set of custom pistons

I know displacement wins for tq and hp is just a mathematical formula of tq... So I was just trying to see what people's general consensus would be a good starting point the 3 options above are what would be a good economical starting point again I am not a racer but I do like to have the power to jump on it and make me smile, if I were to do any sort of racing it would be dabbling in autox, and a run down the strip.

I like the lsv/gsr it's a fair mix of displacement and RPM's Which will equate to fun and with enough support behind it to be fun to build up in the future my one problem with the later model gsr is the intake manifold is different bolt pattern and poor flowing, the head doesn't flow as well as the other b's and the valvetrain is ok not great but ok, that is why I was thinking about the ls/v over a gsr...