98vtec

UPDATE 7-19-2013

complete top end is for sale

Kinsler 62mm ITB (matched to 4piston port) - $1800

4piston CNC h22 head - $2000
- skunk2 springs/retainer/new valves set to 80lbs on seat
- 4piston valve guides
- fresh resurface, valve job, new seals
- 89mm counter bore

Skunk2 Pro 3 cams BNIB - $550
Skunk2 Pro 3 exhaust cam - $100
BME H23 Aluminum rods - $350
CMWorx side exit race header - $300

going turbo.

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Decided to make a new thread for this rebuild which will probably take longer than it should to get it back together but life happens so get over it

to recap the last setup:






Skunk2 Pro3 cams
4Piston head
89x95 - 12.7:1 comp
Custom header by me
Kinsler ITB

After an assortment of losses and finding enough things wrong with the bottom end and valvetrain setup that I paid to have put together to not be able to trust anyone else, I'll be rebuilding this myself. This time around, I am working with Rosko Racing who is designing the pistons as well as a H2B kit for the prelude chassis. We'll be putting around 14:1 static compression (what it was supposed to be from the start).

Moving forward, I purchased a B16 Transmission which got sent out to Chris (Aquafina) @ Whoopee Doo Racing for some love. It will be receiving synchrotech's carbon synchros (thanks Dave) and a MFactory LSD as well as new seals and bearings



I picked up a set of wheels from a fellow prelude racer who was moving onto a more powerful chassis (Z06) but I cant complain, they look awesome and removed an incredible amount of weight




So knowing what we know now and keeping in mind the rod stretch of AL rods, the head had to have some machine work done. The chambers where opened up and the quench pads were recessed more (.050 depth) to fit the piston in there and get the compression we want.



With all thats going on and not particularly liking how my fuel cell was mounted and wanting something a little simpler to get the engine in and out in my garage, I decided to drill out the radiator support in favor of a tube front



And luckily I have a friend who works at the metal fab shop on base and has all sorts of scrap which he gave me to make the front and all my mounting locations for the radiator and fuel cell.



I'll also be cleaning up the engine bay shaving the holes. I removed a few useless braces in the process



I'm waiting for my old street wheels and the H series Competition twin disk and the Mfactory 5.15FD to sell so I can order a tube bender and notcher. I found a guy locally who can do the cage but I'd honestly like to do it myself. For that much money I can buy the materials and the machines. I recently purchased a band saw so thats another machine off the list.

Anyway, thats about where i am at right now and I will update as updates come. I'm going back to school for Machining and Fabrication (there are a few classes i will be taking before I attempt my roll cage LOL) so I'm going to have my hands full.

Thanks for reading

Rocket

The AL rods don't "strech." The extra clearance needed is from thermo expansion.

98vtec

ok, so lets discuss this in a bit more detail since I've read conflicting information on this, obviously. I was told to give .030" clearance additional when using AL rods by someone who builds quite a few AL rod engines (4piston).

http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...yths-with-grp/

GRP states they do stretch, but the amount is very little, however the majority of extra clearance IS for thermal expansion.

So if they dont stretch, what happens when the BE elongates at higher RPM? It has to take the amount of clearance at the parting line and move it somewhere (which in this case could really only be up).

NAH2B

id get rid of the recessed quench pads all together and make it flat

also make sure the tube front end is legal in whichever class you want to run. I remember the tube rad support wasn't allowed for the events up here in the north east

Rocket

Assuming the big end distorts (elongates), that would be seen in the rod bearing wear pattern.

If the rods were "stretching" by 0.030-40" on the exhaust stroke (on compression stroke, there's pressure pushing down on the piston and rod) a million times, that sucker gonna blow quick.

JayWest

Looks good Blake

Rocket

With AL rods, be mindful of ambient temperature. If cold enough, the rod may "clamp" down on da crank. I think 50 °F is the limit for low silicon AL alloy rods (don't think any perf AL rods are anything other than low silicon).

NAH2B

Blake, I know the al rods are cheap and quick to have made but the best advice I can give you on that topic is to simply run steel rods. headache solved and no worries. theres really no reason for you to run the al rods, its not like you run pro stock. it would save you headaches and you can still make over 350whp w/o throwing lightweight rods into the mix. just a suggestion of what I would do, keep it simple screw an al rod lol

4g hatch

props to you....i know how you feel about having somebody else building stuff...if i cant do it then it wont get done now day....i would run steel rods also. the simpler you can keep things and still reach your goals the less that can go wrong and less maitanance required. either way good luck to you and keep us posted.

98vtec

I run the IFO series in All Motor Pro so the AMS classes you guys have mean nothing for me. As much as i would love to be able to make it up to one of those races with the car, I dont think I'll ever make the kind of money needed to make that kind of trip. In the small chance that the business I'm looking into makes decent money then maybe. But i dont see being able to travel across the country for 1 race.


How would it be an assumption? Theres a reason bearing manufacturers make their bearing taper smaller towards the parting line and I'd have a hard time believing they did that for no reason. I'll have to get one of my Engine Builder mags out that talked about this and reread the article.

If you call 3 months quick...lol. I'm not too concerned with it. I'm running AL rods because I wanted to run AL rods and to prove they can do more than what the internet says they can do.


even when you keep it simple, the amount of stuff that can go wrong at 10k rpm is a pretty large amount regardless if the engine was built and assembled correctly. Every track day, there is never a guarantee that something wont happen, you just try to prepare the best you can and have fun along the way.

I'm really shooting for a 10sec pass but at this rate, I just want to get back out on the track. I've got a lot of patience to wait and do everything correctly but I'm a racer at heart so i've always got the itch lol.

moyospeed

98vtec I clicked the link to your build on fb only takes me to my facebook.
Also I sent a pm about what all weight reduction you've done to this beast.
Keep it up!

NAH2B

custom al rod turnaround is 3 weeks nowadays not 3 months. I guess that depends on manufacturer lol

I want to see you build a badass engine with the least amount of problems as possible. using steel rods would save you a lot of trouble/headaches during the build as well as down the road imo.

I understand things can break at any time, kinda like my 100mm bc crank decided to bend out of the blue after running it for a full season lol

but if you keep as many aspects of the build as simple as possible you will be happier in the end and be able to enjoy the car without as much chance of it letting you down.

for example, I spoke with qsd seth over the phone. very smart guy and very nice. he has done some pretty badass stuff but hasn't been able to really enjoy the car. as he said, sometimes he wishes he would have kept it simple so he could be out at the track putting up et and enjoying the car.

I have always believed in keeping things as simple as possible. and as you have seen over the years I have had pretty good luck. I never lost an engine or had a failure of any kind before that bc crank bent. and even then the engine was still running, I drove it onto the trailer lol. oh besides the time I replaced my oem damper with a fluidamper and learned the hard way I should have kept it simple and gone with that I know works or what has been proven to work.

the more variables you add the greater chance of failure you have. and im sure you don't want to keep spending time and $$ finding out what works and what doesn't. like I said, your not really pushing the limits like pro stock etc so theres no need to take chances like that. I really would like to see you leave the al rods alone and go with a set of carrillos weather they be off the shelf or custom depending on the stroke you plan to run.

I am working on a setup for Cody right now and I think it very well could be the best most reliable bang for the buck stroker setup for the H series. if your open to other build options id be glad to share info with you.

Rocket

If the Big End bore is stretching, 0.020- 0.30" you're gonna have some problems. Vertical oil/bearing clearance is only 0.0015 - 0.003". How much more distortion would you expect?

98vtec

https://www.facebook.com/pages/BBmot...5011868?ref=hl

I'll fix that, thanks!

NAH2B

and sure a lot can go wrong at 10k but its not as difficult as a lot of guys would have you believe. people overthink things and make things more difficult than they need to be.

for example, if your running pro 3s use the pro series valvetrain it works. don't worry about people telling you theres not enough pressure or you should have this amount of pressure etc. the **** works plain and simple. try it for yourself and find out for yourself rather than beginning to overthink things because of what anyone tells you when they aren't running the same setup.

10k is not uncommon and it shouldn't frighten you. I was seeing 10500 every hit without worry or failure. a lot of guys are seeing 11k. its nothing to worry about or overthink.

same with bearing clearances, I noticed you asked Jay about clearances on stock block. sure I wouldn't run stock clearances on a built drag engine especially with detonation from higher comp to consider but to turn the 9k hes turning is no problem.

but things like that can and will become a problem when you start to overthink them and start reinventing the wheel without first trying the original method for yourself.

98vtec

It may have just been Don being lazy on ordering them...who knows.

I hear you on the wanting a reliable setup....I do too. My rods are in perfect shape, guess its not going to hurt anything to throw them on the shelf for another build. Let me know what you are thinking for cody and I will at least think about it. I'm always open to ideas. Rosko hasnt finished designing the pistons yet as we still need to CC the new chamber and throwing a long rod (h22) or a short rod (h23) is going to change things a bit since the BME rod was cut shorter than H23 rod when I originally wanted a H22 length rod....go figure. So if I am going to turn around and do something different, the time to decide is like....yesterday lol.

When Don and I first started talking about this build, originally, I wanted to run Carillo Pro-A until Don talked to me about BME and I talked to Bill Miller myself. Then after reading about all the stuff on the internet that went completely against what BME said, I wanted to try for myself.


My biggest problem is finances and until the rest of my stuff sells, I am at a standstill as far as ordering more parts. I've got all the time in the world. With so much going on right now, the car is not on top of my priority list. School is. And on top of school, my wife and I are talking babies so....yea LOL.

I've done well with stuff so far because i've been able to sell things or trade in order to get the product I want so we will see. Gimme your thoughts.

Well yea, I wasn't saying that the horizontal clearance shrunk that much but there has to be some amount of stretch on the rod (depending on the greatest stress area on the rod) when you are throwing a piston around at high engine speed.

the markings I saw on the camshaft gave me enough reason to "setup" the valvetrain. Don also forgot/misplaced/didn't care that he ran the OEM seats too. He didnt run skunk2 bases. We found this out when my seat pressure was under the advertised spec at installed height. My local machinist is setting the pressures up a little higher. You may be right and it might not need more than skunk2s proper setup, but I would feel more comfortable with a higher pressure.

I'm a thinker, I can't help it LOL

NAH2B

damn well that explains a lot no wonder you had problems. its as easy as using the sk2 bases, big difference.

man I would run the longest rod you can fit in there. r/s makes a big difference in how long the engine lasts and also affects power I don't care what anyone tells you. the added resistance from poor r/s will rob hp. and if you want to get x number of hits out of the engine before a rebuild than r/s is extremely important.

what stroke you plan to run?

believe it or not I have devised a way to achieve a 1.51 r/s ratio on 99mm stroke in the H deck

beat the **** out of it as much as you like lol

98vtec

Planning on 95mm

blade0314

haha ;-) were about to make some noise in the all motor class and hurt feelings

NAH2B

ok if your going with 95 then just use h22 length rods, several options. I would go with carrillo. that will give you a 1.50 r/s which is great. not as great as the 1.51 im squeezing out of the 99mm stroke but close enough. did I mention im also using an off the shelf rod



what is the length of your al rods?

Rocket

Brian Crower has nice lightweight rods.

NAH2B

it wont be that easy lol, id expect 10.3s, 10.2s off the bat at weight but the rest is gonna require a lot of intake and exhaust tuning, trial and error as well as possible cam changes. only problem is im not sure how much room I want to leave in the piston for more lift by sacrificing compression. what you have now is already max dome so its not like we can squeeze more out of it anywhere without sacrificing clearances.

plus don't forget, what would the K guys run if they were allowed to weigh 2000 lbs.

.5 tenths wont come easy for you from 4mm stroke but it could come easy for anyone dropping hundreds of lbs lol

NAH2B

H22 off the shelf? what they weigh?

NAH2B

I know they offer a 440g sportsman rod for b series but their H rods are like 550s

blade0314

Sounds like a challenge you know i love those lol ... Challenge accepted haha