valter

Hi All,

I am new and after getting a few headaches ( good ones thx Mustclime,SHG_Easy,Hasbro,B Serious ) I have decided to join and hopefully get some advise for suspension build on my EP3. From all the reading I have come up with the list below so far. I am open to any suggestions and will really appreciate the help. The car is currently a DD, but may not be for much longer. I am looking to achieve the best of both worlds at this time good DD ( I don't care for comfort) and a car that handles nicely for the occasional track day with a tire swap of course.

RSX Type S Front double adjustable Koni Race - re valved for 1000 pounds. 350 pound Ground Control Koni springs.
RSX Type S Rear rebound only Koni Yellow - re valved for 1000 pounds. 630 pound Ground Control Koni springs.
RSX Type S Tie rod ends.
Todds v1 front camber plates.
Todds Adjustable tie rods.
Hardrace hard rubber bushings complete kit.
Hardrace rear camber kit.
Hardrace roll center adjusters.
DC5R Front LCAs and front sway bar.
Base RSX 5 lug swap with front + rear knuckles spindle assembly + rear LCA + trailing arms.
Hondata re-flash + Hondata air box mod + K&N drop in air filter.
Rebuild steering rack will all new parts.
Tanabe 2 1/4 mid pipe.
5Zigen FN01R - C 17x8 +43 with 215/45/17 or 225/45/17
Stoptech front slotted discs + brake and clutch lines.
Stock calipers + Hawk pads.
Speedbleeders all around.
Bunch of new gaskets ( the spark plug seal are a serious pita), bolts and nuts, water pump etc...
K24A2 - 11/6/2015
Thank you all for all the help with the great info you have already posted.

Fair warning to anyone that wants to do what I am doing - DO NOT DO ALL THIS AT THE SAME TIME LIKE ME ! Take your time and do one mod at a time.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Polyurethane bushings

Why did you settle on the Megan racing brand? Are you trying to achieve something in particular with this car? There are a LOT of better options.

valter

Hi B Serious,

Thanks for your reply. This is the main reason for my post. And don't get me wrong I don't expect to get the perfect set up. There will be trial and error, but there are a lot of folks here that have done more builds and any advise is appreciated.

Megan Racing was due to the spring rates they offer and the B style( http://www.meganracing.com/new/tech/.../EM2%20chassis ) lets you insert the tie rod upside down, which will help with the rack angle. And to be honest there are so many options and I have done so much reading that its even harder to decide. The Energy's were done a long time ago, is there anything wrong with them? Or you are suggesting the spherical bearing ones?

P.S.

To be honest all I am am trying to a achieve is a stable car that I will enjoy and will be better than stock. After the suspension is sorted I plan on doing a motor swap. Haven't decided if it will be a JDM K20A ( i know there are other options, but a 6 speed transmission, with engine, axles, LSD, all the accessories including ECU, CAT, etc on 30-50 000 miles for $4500-$5000, is a better deal than a K20A2 long block for $2500 and on 80,000 + miles IMHO)The main reason for the swap will be the 230K miles the EP3 has on it
I am not trying to go as low as I can, trying to improve handling.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The inverted rack angle position is nice. Megan just isn't a known quality brand.

The only full body coilover that I would buy for around $1k is the buddy club N+. The Tein Street Flex is another nice looking piece.

If you don't plan on over-lowering the car, you likely don't need full body adjustability.

Tein street Basis/Street advance coilovers are nice street coilovers. They're low on "features" for the price, but they're nice. Not full body adjustable...so you can't over lower the car.

Or save up a bit and buy the Bilstein PSS9 for about $1400. They're not full body adjustable...but if you use them like they're intended...they're the BEST riding street coilover I have ever driven on.

The things I have against polyurethane bushings:
-The non-compliance over sharp bumps.
-The appaling rate of wearing out.
-Hard rubber bushings are available (albeit more expensive).

I would not recommend spherical bushings for anything except a track/race car. I wouldn't use them on a street car.

valter

Hi B serious,

Thanks again for your reply. I have been doing more research and the more I read the more I want to go with either the A-Spec or Konis with Ground Controls. I am not looking to slam the car. I am looking into just getting it handle better and last ( and have some fun on the track once in a while). I am tired of just throwing money at the suspension and making it worst than stock. I was also looking at the kit progress currently has ( Progress Technology: Anti-roll bars, sport springs, coil-overs, camber kits and more since 1995!) They seem to be alright... lots of good feedback on them.

Hasbro

Keep researching, suspension design is a black art and infinitesimally variable. Defining what you really want is a challenge and then actually making it work is equally challenging. If you can drive or ride in other modded EP3s this will help a lot. Some of your considerations (Megans, Progress, Konis) will make for a considerably different feeling suspension in comparison to each other. If you are willing to learn about spring selection, using a hertz calculator will really help get you in the right direction. Spring Rate & Frequency Calculator - Club RSX Message Board

The best tires and a correct alignment are the most important of all considerations. Colin Chapman (Lotus) would find the optimal tires and design his car around them.

By the way, offset solid bushings can work on a street car. Powers on EPHatch.com is using them with A-Specs and they are barely noticeable. And they provide much needed caster. I'm not recommending them, just keep them in mind.

- Define what you actually want. I think most people miss nailing this by building what they think they want.

- Budget; if you get serious, whatever you think it will cost is much lower than you think.

- Time; do you want it done in a month or are you willing to mess with suspension tuning for possibly years. Seriously!

- The EP3 has suspension design flaws (most production cars do) and it will always be an EP3, even after a lot of money and effort. That said, I love how well mine handles but have made pretty extreme sacrifices in other areas of the car. But that's ok since I understood this due to carefully defining my wants.

valter

Thanks Hasbro,

I have already played around a bunch and am noticing that budget can be high if someone else does your installs etc.. At this time all I am looking to do is bring the car to a stable condition as I made the mistake of installing a cheap coil-over (Racelands) that even after only a coupe of weeks of use seems to have done damage to lca,tie rods, bushings etc( they are off the car ). I don't mind messing with the suspension for years ( not planning on selling the EP3). I enjoy working on the car and hope that it will only be upwards from here hopefully. I looked into the hardened rubber bushings and at the price that king sells them for. I can get the CTR lcas just for bit more. I don't mind waiting and saving for a something that would make more sense.
I guess to summarize I am trying to fix the damage and use upgraded /performance parts that will help me enjoy the car more. Unfortunately I don't know anyone else that has an EP3 or RSX and is into messing around with their car ...


P.S.

Oh yeah suspension definitely is a black art. I have spend many nights over the last few months reading till 3-4 am...

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't do koni/GC on a EP3 unless you feel comfortable welding shocks (don't do that. Its a trap!).

Konis work fine in the back. But the cartridge design will always make noise and clunk around up front. Maybe someone knows how to remedy this....but I would just avoid Koni Yellows on this particular car.

The A spec kit will require you to buy RSX tie rods, IIRC. Its a nice kit...but very soft. Lowers the car about 1".

Again...I'll highly recommend Bilstein PSS9's. They're fairly inexpensive and they're amazing.

Hasbro

B serious, by welding are you referring to the racing double adjustable Koni set up? Koni Yellows don't require welding nor do mine klunk except on a steep driveway, although it's a pretty common occurrence.

Koni and Bilstein are both high quality dampers. You can get Bilstein B-16s (PSS9s) for under 2k here in the US. Although they have progressive springs, they are a great choice and they give you more streetability. I believe you can get custom springs for them but I can't remember. There's a guy from Germany on EPHatch that ran them on the Nurbergring and really liked them and there are some guys here in the US and Canada that sing their praises.

Anyway, Valter, there are a million ways to tune your suspension, it just depends on what you want. You sound pretty serious since you mentioned R lcas. They are great as they lighten sprung weight, add about 10mm more track (I think), and some caster. You can also add caster with the spherical offset bushings, washers added to the sub frame, and camber/caster plates such as what Todd makes. Or you can reverse Hotchkis plates and get some caster along with some camber or make your own caster only plates.

valter

Thanks guys... more reading and more headaches...
The plan is this.. regardless of the shock/spring or coil over set I go for ( with close to double spring rates than stock, should be fine for a track day newb like me?). It will be the RSX one. All parts seem a lot stronger and better. I will be ordering Todd's modified tie rods ( so the alignment shop cant tell me they ran out of threads/seized and they have 230k miles on them, the ends are fairly new, the alignment shop accused me that they were just changed when they have 50 000 + miles on them ) and hopefully he makes another batch of the Caster / Camber Plates. Next buy will be bushings as I have a gut feeling this is where most of the problems are coming from.On the bushings I am debating on the Mugen Lcas for the front, getting the 04-05 Ep3 bushings as they are a lot stiffer or just replacing the existing Energy's ( nothing is better than OEM )

The wheels I seem to be stuck at 16". 17" seem to big to me for some reason. If someone has ran both let me know what you think.

P.S.

Forgot to mention I will sneak in a Exedy stage 2 clutch in there too ( for longevity). Just don't tell the wife that the price for all this isn't as much as OEM Honda parts... I also did a compression test on the 230k+ engine the other day and WOW compression is still 160-170 psi across ... found a leak on the sparkplug/head cover seal at cyl 4 that I will be addressing shortly.Needs to have the valves checked anyway as they have never been touched. Sorry for the rambling, but I have plans on teaching my 8th year old on how to drive in the EP3...once she is of age, so it will be an endless money pit... that I will love and enjoy forever.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Don't mod the car before going to the track. That's counter productive.

Tires and brake pads/fluid should really be the only things you do to the car the first time out. Otherwise it's impossible to get a good baseline or know which direction to move in.

17's would be an obvious choice for a car as big as an EP3. 255/40 up front...maybe 235/40 or 225/45 in back. But...I wouldn't do that until you get a baseline.

valter

[QUOTE=B serious;50057359]Don't mod the car before going to the track. That's counter productive.

I see your point my friend. Unfortunately is a bit late as the car has already been modified. I still have the stock springs that I can put back on ... but that would not do me any good..

Blue-Civic-Hybrid

iTrader: (1)

This is some great reading and I am also going through some serious "mental issues" in choosing a replacement suspension for my EP3 CTR over here in England.

I've been a huge fan of GCs/Koni yellows in all my cars (EG coupe/GD3 Fit/NA1 Miata, CRX Si) and I was gonna go down the same road with my new to me EP3 CTR. But after doing some reading and never having done a "insert system" for the front suspension, I have been slightly apprehensive in tackling this. I understand the concept of cutting up the front shocks, drilling a hole in the bottom and bolting the shock in, I wonder if this is the route I want to tackle without my garage full of tools back home in San Diego.

So I have found some replacement systems that have piqued my interest and I am looking forward to finally choosing one of these: (or another suggestion)

1. Progress CS2 for the RSX
2. Miester R suspension ( a local favorite here in England)
3. K Sports for the RSX
4. Koni's and GC's... I have loved this setup in all my other cars, I can't seem to let it go!

My CTR will be a daily driver but it will see a few track events during the year, specifically the Nurburgring and SPa in France. I want an adjustable system for comfort during the daily part and the ability to stiffen her up when I do my track events.

Hopefully we can discuss the pro's and cons of all this black magic!!

valter

I am leaning more and more towards progress. Seems to be the best bang for the buck for a newb like me. However everyone is praising their CS2 set up. I don't see this one available on their website. I only see the Series I on their website. Is this just a re-branding or the CS2s are a unicorn that shows its face once in a million years? However Koni has a lifetime warranty.... The biggest problem I have with the Koni"s is that I don't have the RSX stock bodies.

Fro wheels I am looking at Enkei Racing 17" with 41mm offset 14.6 pounds a piece or some comparable O.Z. ... that must be half the stock wheel. The other option is to use the 09 Fit 16" they are a lot lighter. If i get a chance I will weight them.. This weekend is too busy. Had a tree fall down in my yard.

Blue-Civic-Hybrid - you my friend have just opened a whole new can of worms for me.. I can have a 2004 CTR on 100k for $5000 in the UK? Shipping $1000 more ... still a steal. thinking... thinking... that's for the future...

Soooo many options... about to lose my mind...

Blue-Civic-Hybrid

iTrader: (1)

I actually paid $3990 for my CTR after the exchange rate here in England with all the maintenance done at the Honda dealer with records intact. But let me tell you, driving a 6 speed with right hand drive took me about a month to get used to! Plus mine came with Eibach springs which slightly lowered the R suspension.

As for your wheels, I am looking at getting Enkei RPF1's myself since they are light, strong and quite affordable. But right now I have a set of OEM Subaru STi wheels as a daily set, they were only $200 and are 17x8 and fairly lighter and stronger than my current 18x7.5 "boy racer wheels" which came with the car. I just need to buy some new tires for the wet crap weather over here!

I will post pics once I get new tires mounted and balanced.

valter

Ok Guys,

There it goes:
Progress CS1 for the RSX fully rebuildable, spring rates 350 front/650 rear - $940. According to progress this is a much better kit than the CS2. May have to do some drilling as my car has 14 mm clevis bolts.
Progress Technology: Anti-roll bars, sport springs, coil-overs, camber kits and more since 1995!
Tood's - Extended Tie Rods - these are in the mail already - $276 shipped
da Vinci Designs » Tie Rods
Exedy Stage 2 clutch with fly wheel ( I already have a chromoly fly wheel on the car 10.5pounds .. This part is under heavy consideration for a yay or nay, clutch seems to slip a bit - has 90 000 miles ) - $640 - Exedy because I don't have experience with the other brands. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Exedy Racing - Stage 2 Cerametallic Clutch Kit - THMotorsports - Discount Performance Car & Truck Parts Sale | Lowest Price | Free Shipping -delete
17" Enkei RPF1 - may have to wait on those - $900 new ( have been looking for good used ones with no luck) budget getting high.

The stuff I am struggling the most with right now is and will appreciate help with:
Roll center adjusters ( any of you guys use them are they worth it/needed would I need both ?) - any brand - $150 - ball joints are shot and need to go
RSX Tie Rod Ends or T1R Pillowball Steering for RSX - $150-200.v - going for RSX stock tie rod ends

Will have the car checked and see if it needs new bushings and will go from there.
I will also do break lines and clutch line when I swap the clutch.

Blue-Civic-Hybrid

iTrader: (1)

Did you pull the trigger on those CS1 Progress ones? Please let me know how that suspension goes for you!!

I am currently in limbo trying to figure out which suspension I want!!

valter

Cutting a deal with THmotorsports.com, they have been great so far. But I am definitely getting these.They are fully rebuildable.

The problem with me is that I want to do it all in one shot... that's my OCD I guess... I know I should take my time and play with it, but the car has some major issues right now that i need to address. Still debating on the clutch and the BBK form Wilwood, these too are half the budget. And I think I can hold off on those for now and just get the RFP1s and nice tires. I will get the tires an rims anyway, but I am trying to keep the pocket book damage in check... As this will be many weekend shifts to cover all of it...

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Exedy stage 1 is a nice clutch. Why do you want a segmented race clutch? This isn't a street car?

valter

Hi B Serious,

I am debating this myself, thinking that the stage 2 thick disk will last longer... that's the only reason.. Yes, it is a street car and I think I am pretty good with m/t. Original clutch was replaced after 150k not because it failed, because I felt it slip a few times and thought its time ... replaced with same OEM clutch and plate with a 10.5 pound chromoly flywheel 90 k on that. To be honest i think I just wanna replace it so I wouldn't have to do it again... dreaming again... The stage one will save me almost $400 if i reuse my flywheel... half of the price for the RPF1s....or the Wilwoods...
At this point I am thinking about "stealing" the 16" wheels of the 09 fit sport and these tires @ 225/45R16 - shouldn't need any mods.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....omCompare1=yes

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Fit wheels are 6" wide or something. 225/45/16 isn't the right size tire for those wheels. You'd want at least a 16x7.5 or so for 225/45's. They're also like a +55 offset :/

A stage 2 clutch doesn't last very long. Its a thinned out disk for track use. My stage 3 (hyper single) was $1400 and lasted 20k miles. Plus it made the car almost undriveable. It was amazing on the race track....but ultimately, a bad idea for a street clutch.

I barely drive my S2000 on the street, but I opted to replace the hyper single with a stock clutch for the sake of simplicity and longevity. I also reinstalled a stock flywheel because its only 13LBS anyway.

Idk man. Everyone has their own priorities and ways of building. The only reason I'm suggesting anything is because you said you wanted to track the car. You're not building a very effective trackable car with those parts.

I wouldn't buy anything else without actually tracking it. Its impossible to know what will work well. You're mixing street and race parts randomly. Most well built street/track cars don't use purely off the shelf parts. You track it first and then figure out which spring rate, sway bar combination, tire size/compound, alignment, etc to use next based on what the car is/isn't doing for you. Its also a better way to spend your money on something that actually amounts to speed or driveability.

I've seen a couple tracked EP3's. Ive seen a few quick RSX's. Pretty simple setups. 17x9 and 17x8 wheel staggers. Big tires (255/40) up front. Slightly narrower tires in back. Lots of front camber. Brake pads. Usually some custom rate springs on a good....but fairly agressive coilover. But those setups were all put together over time...after a lot of driving.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

On the other hand, if you're building a car because you just want to mod a car and spend some cash and have fun for a few months....you're fine to just buy parts at random.

valter

Hi B Serious,

I know exactly what you are saying and I am going back on a lot of the stuff. I was actually thinking of purchasing the Stage 2 thick dis which is actually made for longevity rather than the thin disk. Yes the fit has the 16x6 wheels I just now starting to research the rim information ( so forgive me). That was just an idea on trying to track the car before I throw money at it. The wheels size you are suggesting will require modifying the fender well. I have never done this and have not researched it yet. Not sure if all it needs is rolling the fenders. and this build will definitely keep going for a while i know that. This is why I am trying to start off and build on it.Check the new list below:

Todds - extended tie rod arms - ordered ( reason driver side tie rod is rusted/ seized and almost non adjustable) was going to replace them with just stock, but why not get something that will have the adjustments if i need them?
Tie Rod ends - mine are shot - I am having the car checked and they will confirm/deny.
RSX Progress - CS1 - $940 shipped - Not a good kit? - getting this because the tie rod ends for the RSX are a lot stronger and the current shocks are probably blown.
RCA - I don't know if I need them, I need to replace the lower ball joint, I know they are shot. Why not do it now, if it maybe of benefit? I really shouldn't need them as I plan using the progress CS1 on their highest setting and than maybe going down to 1.5" not any lower.
RPF1s
Tires - undecided need to research what mods need to be done to car to fit

The other stuff on here is me getting ahead of myself...

Simply put ... I cannot put the car on the track in the current condition-front end is a mess.
Thank you again for your feedback this is the reason for this thread. In no one way am I trying to throw parts at the car and hope it gets better.You have went the path I am trying to walk and your feedback is greatly appreciated.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The setup listed above isn't bad at all. If you're buying RCA's, you should probably lower the car about 1.5'' or so. Otherwise, you're moving the roll center out of it's stock position anyway.

Progress makes a good suspension, according to quite a few people. I'm not completely familiar with them. I also don't know how much they cost.

I would suggest not doing the stage 2 clutch, if that's still on the table. The "thick" disk has more longevity than the thin disk...but it's still a race clutch. With the higher pedal pressures, you'll want to install a clutch bypass switch, and you'll need to be very mindful of how long you keep the clutch pressed. It will also mean higher pedal effort and less driveability than a street clutch.

The Exedy stage 1 clutch lasts a reasonably long time (longer than even the thick stage 2 disk, if you're using it as a street car), has a more sporty feel than stock, and doesn't require you to change anything. I like that the pressure plate springs are rated about the same as stock....but the friction material is more aggressive. That's ideal for a street clutch.

Excessive clutch spring pressure can (and almost always does) wear out your thrust bearings. Granted, you have a healthy engine...but driving a race clutch on the street will probably cause some sort of crank walk issue in the near future. Street driving requires a lot of pedal pushing at low engine speeds.

As far as rolling fenders to fit tires is concerned....almost any "track" spec wheel fitment will require this. If you're weary of doing that, then don't. It takes the right tools, technique, and follow up fixes to the fender lip coating. It will also require you to run more camber.

What can you put under an EP3 fender? I can't imagine like a 17x8 + 45 being much of an issue. I have 17X8 +45 TL-S wheels under my TSX with 0 fender mods. RPF1's are a good choice. LSD motorsports seems to have a pretty decent deal on them usually. Or try the HT vendor marketplace. Maybe THMotorsports can cut you some sort of deal for all the parts on your list.

valter

Thanks B Serous,

The clutch is gone and yes TH is giving me a bit of a break on the parts. I was just about to post that now I realize why the wheels are such a big deal. From the reading I have been doing I probably will drop the Wilwoods too for now, because with the lighter wheel/ less work for the brakes. Yes I will be getting the RPF1s the O.Z. Alleggerita HLT are sweet and even lighter, but are $120 more per piece, also 1 pound lighter than the RPF1s. The Progress kit is $940 shipped and made right here in the US fully rebuildable. As far as rolling the fenders go - never done it, don't mind trying it.
Once this is all said and done I will update the parts list.

Forgot to include brake and cluch lines upgrade , that will be done.