ATS FD on track
06-24-2002, 03:04 PM
#1
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ATS FD on track
This past weekend myself and 2 other ITR owners had the pleasure of testing out the ATS 4.9 FD @ Summit Point with NASA. I talked with several other "stock equipped" ITR owners about gearing and shift points for comparison. Here is a quick overview of what I found out.
Turn 1. 3rd gear ATS & OE
Turn 2. 4th gear at exit with ATS. Combined with lowered VTEC point (5400), I was eating up a lot of higher hp/tq cars in this area. OE cars were shifting to 4th just before Turn 3.
Turn 3-4. 4th gear with both cars
Turn 5-8. 3rd gear. Due to higher rpm with ATS (about 600-700 over OE), I had problems at first with applying too much power. Had to be very smooth through here to keep from unsettling the car.
Turn 9. This was the interesting corner. I found that short-shifting to 4th between 8-9 was the fastest, as I would need to shift to 4th before fully exiting 9 if not. When caught behind traffic, I stayed in 3rd and shifted to 4th(all over fuel cut @ 8600) while creasting the hill.
Straight between Turn 9-10. If not in traffic, I felt I could have gone to 5th before the braking zone for 10. I usually feathered the throttle before the braking zone and rolled 4th onto the straight.
Front straight, hit 5th gear crossing Start-Finish.
ATS rocks on this track in my opinion.
Maybe the 2 other R owners will chime in with their experiences, especially considering they are more advanced than I. This mod worried me before the weekend, but it very much pleased me.
I'll try to answer any questions if I can.
Turn 1. 3rd gear ATS & OE
Turn 2. 4th gear at exit with ATS. Combined with lowered VTEC point (5400), I was eating up a lot of higher hp/tq cars in this area. OE cars were shifting to 4th just before Turn 3.
Turn 3-4. 4th gear with both cars
Turn 5-8. 3rd gear. Due to higher rpm with ATS (about 600-700 over OE), I had problems at first with applying too much power. Had to be very smooth through here to keep from unsettling the car.
Turn 9. This was the interesting corner. I found that short-shifting to 4th between 8-9 was the fastest, as I would need to shift to 4th before fully exiting 9 if not. When caught behind traffic, I stayed in 3rd and shifted to 4th(all over fuel cut @ 8600) while creasting the hill.
Straight between Turn 9-10. If not in traffic, I felt I could have gone to 5th before the braking zone for 10. I usually feathered the throttle before the braking zone and rolled 4th onto the straight.
Front straight, hit 5th gear crossing Start-Finish.
ATS rocks on this track in my opinion.
Maybe the 2 other R owners will chime in with their experiences, especially considering they are more advanced than I. This mod worried me before the weekend, but it very much pleased me. I'll try to answer any questions if I can.
06-24-2002, 03:09 PM
#2
Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
Good insight Chris
I had my car on the track a month ago with the JDM FD and was worried about shifting too much but i loved having it. I bet the ATS piece was a blast to have in your car. What mph do you shift into 5th gear? 100mph?
mike
orlando, fl
I had my car on the track a month ago with the JDM FD and was worried about shifting too much but i loved having it. I bet the ATS piece was a blast to have in your car. What mph do you shift into 5th gear? 100mph?
mike
orlando, fl
06-24-2002, 05:28 PM
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Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
Chris, nice to finally meet you!
I was impressed with your FD. I for one, would like more out of Turn 2-3, as you have seen an improvement. I would hit VTEC right at the exit road on the left side there at 3rd gear. But again, my R is stock. The lower VTEC point would be beneficial as well. Turn 10 to 1 as well...
Thanks,
Victor Perri II
I was impressed with your FD. I for one, would like more out of Turn 2-3, as you have seen an improvement. I would hit VTEC right at the exit road on the left side there at 3rd gear. But again, my R is stock. The lower VTEC point would be beneficial as well. Turn 10 to 1 as well...
Thanks,
Victor Perri II
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06-24-2002, 05:47 PM
#8
Former Moderator
Re: ATS FD on track (zyg)
I've had my ATS FD for quite a while and I love it.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
06-24-2002, 05:48 PM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (B18C5-EH2)
I've had my ATS FD for quite a while and I love it.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
.....You just won't get there NEARLY as quick as Ed will.
Trust me, I know what's coming and I want 2!!! 
06-24-2002, 08:54 PM
#10
Former Moderator
Re: ATS FD on track (zyg)
Unfortunately, the stock B18C5 peak power is developed in the 8 - 8.2K rpm range!
And once I add a good cam combo with valvesprings will the power band not be a tad higher as well? Shifting @ 9000rpm might not net me much power past 8200rpm or so, but it does allow me to land at higher RPMs in the next gear to avoid my untuned 6000-6500 rpm not so impressive power output.
06-24-2002, 09:06 PM
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Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
I hear there is alot of maintence with the ATS final drive is that true or is it like OEm just change the fluid and all done. How much of a difference is the ATS 4.9 vs the JDM 4.785 I am looking for a JDM final drive for my B18C5 but cant find one but if simalar might pop the extra green of the ATS
06-24-2002, 11:07 PM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
This past weekend myself and 2 other ITR owners had the pleasure of testing out the ATS 4.9 FD @ Summit Point with NASA. I talked with several other "stock equipped" ITR owners about gearing and shift points for comparison. Here is a quick overview of what I found out.
Turn 1. 3rd gear ATS & OE
Turn 2. 4th gear at exit with ATS. Combined with lowered VTEC point (5400), I was eating up a lot of higher hp/tq cars in this area. OE cars were shifting to 4th just before Turn 3.
Turn 3-4. 4th gear with both cars
Turn 5-8. 3rd gear. Due to higher rpm with ATS (about 600-700 over OE), I had problems at first with applying too much power. Had to be very smooth through here to keep from unsettling the car.
Turn 9. This was the interesting corner. I found that short-shifting to 4th between 8-9 was the fastest, as I would need to shift to 4th before fully exiting 9 if not. When caught behind traffic, I stayed in 3rd and shifted to 4th(all over fuel cut @ 8600) while creasting the hill.
Straight between Turn 9-10. If not in traffic, I felt I could have gone to 5th before the braking zone for 10. I usually feathered the throttle before the braking zone and rolled 4th onto the straight.
Front straight, hit 5th gear crossing Start-Finish.
ATS rocks on this track in my opinion. Maybe the 2 other R owners will chime in with their experiences, especially considering they are more advanced than I. This mod worried me before the weekend, but it very much pleased me.
I'll try to answer any questions if I can.
Turn 1. 3rd gear ATS & OE
Turn 2. 4th gear at exit with ATS. Combined with lowered VTEC point (5400), I was eating up a lot of higher hp/tq cars in this area. OE cars were shifting to 4th just before Turn 3.
Turn 3-4. 4th gear with both cars
Turn 5-8. 3rd gear. Due to higher rpm with ATS (about 600-700 over OE), I had problems at first with applying too much power. Had to be very smooth through here to keep from unsettling the car.
Turn 9. This was the interesting corner. I found that short-shifting to 4th between 8-9 was the fastest, as I would need to shift to 4th before fully exiting 9 if not. When caught behind traffic, I stayed in 3rd and shifted to 4th(all over fuel cut @ 8600) while creasting the hill.
Straight between Turn 9-10. If not in traffic, I felt I could have gone to 5th before the braking zone for 10. I usually feathered the throttle before the braking zone and rolled 4th onto the straight.
Front straight, hit 5th gear crossing Start-Finish.
ATS rocks on this track in my opinion.
Maybe the 2 other R owners will chime in with their experiences, especially considering they are more advanced than I. This mod worried me before the weekend, but it very much pleased me. I'll try to answer any questions if I can.
but...curiosity didnt' kill the katman...spelling errors did.
06-24-2002, 11:28 PM
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Re: ATS FD on track (B18C5-EH2)
I've had my ATS FD for quite a while and I love it.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
I added a .787 GS-R 5th gear on mine though, and with a 9200rpm redline I don't think my old topspeed will be affected in any way.
06-25-2002, 03:14 AM
#15
Former Moderator
Re: ATS FD on track (tjtruong)
First:
Maintenance? Don't see why there should be a need for any extra maintenance. I use Honda Manual Transmission Fluid and I guess I'll have to set a mileage schedule as to when I need to change the fluid.
Second:
The GS-R .787 5th gear makes the freeway RPMs NEAR stock ITR, but maybe still slightly higher. Because I can rev higher than a stock ITR with the re-chipped P28, I don't think the RPM drop from 4th-5th hurts so much.
IT DEFINATELY DOES NOT DROP OUT OF VTEC.
I will say that you notice the larger gap when compared to the other closer gaps between 1-2, 2-3, and then 3-4, but there's something else that could clear this up:
GS-R 4th gear as well as the 5th gear. Why? Because the JDM ITR tranny is nothing more than the USDM ITR tranny with GS-R 4th and 5th gears and the 4.78FD. This GS-R 4th gear is something I'm looking at the next time my tranny comes out for the flywheel. I fugur that if the JDM ITR tranny has the GS-R 4th then the drop from the USDM ITR 3rd to the JDM ITR/USDM GS-R 4th cannot be so bad since the Japanese always seem to get the good stuff.
My friend runs the same combo that I do in his otherwise bone-stock ITR (except SPOON filter) and I'll have to ride in/drive his car and see what kind of RPM drop we're looking at in his car with the stock 8400rpm redline.
Maintenance? Don't see why there should be a need for any extra maintenance. I use Honda Manual Transmission Fluid and I guess I'll have to set a mileage schedule as to when I need to change the fluid.
Second:
The GS-R .787 5th gear makes the freeway RPMs NEAR stock ITR, but maybe still slightly higher. Because I can rev higher than a stock ITR with the re-chipped P28, I don't think the RPM drop from 4th-5th hurts so much.
IT DEFINATELY DOES NOT DROP OUT OF VTEC.
I will say that you notice the larger gap when compared to the other closer gaps between 1-2, 2-3, and then 3-4, but there's something else that could clear this up:
GS-R 4th gear as well as the 5th gear. Why? Because the JDM ITR tranny is nothing more than the USDM ITR tranny with GS-R 4th and 5th gears and the 4.78FD. This GS-R 4th gear is something I'm looking at the next time my tranny comes out for the flywheel. I fugur that if the JDM ITR tranny has the GS-R 4th then the drop from the USDM ITR 3rd to the JDM ITR/USDM GS-R 4th cannot be so bad since the Japanese always seem to get the good stuff.
My friend runs the same combo that I do in his otherwise bone-stock ITR (except SPOON filter
) and I'll have to ride in/drive his car and see what kind of RPM drop we're looking at in his car with the stock 8400rpm redline.
06-25-2002, 04:50 AM
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
Great review!!! Unfortunately, My summer is busier than I had first expected and I will not be able to hit a course till the fall But, Limerock Here I come!!! Can't wait to see How I fare out, I have full confidence.
The ATS/FD is by far my favorite mod to date and I owe alot to Rodney!
He let me drive his car and feel the difference and helped me through the process. Yasu is also a great guy, I can't forget him.
Good luck,
A.
06-25-2002, 05:49 AM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (B18C5-EH2)
This GS-R 4th gear is something I'm looking at the next time my tranny comes out for the flywheel. I fugur that if the JDM ITR tranny has the GS-R 4th then the drop from the USDM ITR 3rd to the JDM ITR/USDM GS-R 4th cannot be so bad since the Japanese always seem to get the good stuff.
Bwahahahaha! There goes your "drag" times!
BTW: your ecu isn't stock if I recall correctly. Can you give us an idea of your rev limiter and vtec crossover? You may be making more power than the typical p73 - which is what most relatively "stock" guys have.....
06-25-2002, 10:36 AM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (RStoR)
Katman....
Volk TE37 15 x 7
205/50 Yok AVS Intermediates (that are pretty much gone after this weekend)
Volk TE37 15 x 7
205/50 Yok AVS Intermediates (that are pretty much gone after this weekend)
I just wanted to shed some light on the fact that wheel/tire combo specs should be taken into account when changing the final drive from 4.40 to 4.7 or higher FD's. Remember that if you run a 16" wheel or a taller tire, you'll have better speeds than you would with a 15" wheel with 50 series tire. I'm sure you know this, correct?
(not aimed at your RStoR....just some general info for others)
An upgraded FD might 'feel' good, but it can hinder performance (gained speeds) if not correlated with the right wheel/tire combo sizes.
I personally realized this at the last Hybrid Trackday (@buttonwillow) & I keep forgetting that the 98 spec type-R uses a 16" wheel and I think a 45/series tire. And Honda did that, because of the 4.785 final drive. I personally have a CTR tranny, w/ 134 CTR gears, GSR 2&5th gears, and 4.785 fd. I used a GSR 2nd because I wanted a longer 2nd gear vs. the CTR 2nd (soo damn short with the 4.7fd..it's almost pointless to have 2nd gear). Anyways, I did some calculations (along with some friends) with my wheel/tire combo and final drive specs, and found that my final drive winds out to being something close to 4.8x! ewww. Too short, for me at least. This 4.8x ratio my car has right now, is actually hurting my speeds at the track, although I thought it was helping me.
So, to fix that, I need to heighten my front wheel settings. Either go 16" w/45 series tire or go 55 series tire on my current 15" wheels.
My point is...going with a tighter final drive doesn't always improve performance if you don't take the wheel/tire combo into account. Yes, it may 'feel' better but it's actually hurting you in other aspects of speeds. Also the 4.40FD shouldn't be hated upon by others...its a good final drive spec for a 15" wheel/tire combo. Honda knows whats up (at least 95% of the time)
06-25-2002, 11:44 AM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (Katman)
This 4.8x ratio my car has right now, is actually hurting my speeds at the track, although I thought it was helping me.
How is this hurting you?
06-25-2002, 12:36 PM
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Re: ATS FD on track (Black R)
Katman-
I fully agree with your comments on the potential to hurt track performance. Before installing my FD, I talked with a local racer who is using the JDM FD in his ITR. After extensive testing, he took it out due to slower times. He communicates with Foo and Harvey a lot and they both suggested the even shorter ATS version, but only with custom gearing and or wheel/tire combos for each track. Must be nice to have this option! While my combo was very good at Summit, it may truly be slower at others. Great observation!
I fully agree with your comments on the potential to hurt track performance. Before installing my FD, I talked with a local racer who is using the JDM FD in his ITR. After extensive testing, he took it out due to slower times. He communicates with Foo and Harvey a lot and they both suggested the even shorter ATS version, but only with custom gearing and or wheel/tire combos for each track. Must be nice to have this option! While my combo was very good at Summit, it may truly be slower at others. Great observation!
06-25-2002, 12:44 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Re: ATS FD on track (Black R)
This 4.8x ratio my car has right now, is actually hurting my speeds at the track, although I thought it was helping me.
How is this hurting you?
How is this hurting you?
06-25-2002, 12:49 PM
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Re: ATS FD on track (Katman)
Katman....
Volk TE37 15 x 7
205/50 Yok AVS Intermediates (that are pretty much gone after this weekend)
ok thanks.
I just wanted to shed some light on the fact that wheel/tire combo specs should be taken into account when changing the final drive from 4.40 to 4.7 or higher FD's. Remember that if you run a 16" wheel or a taller tire, you'll have better speeds than you would with a 15" wheel with 50 series tire. I'm sure you know this, correct?
(not aimed at your RStoR....just some general info for others)
An upgraded FD might 'feel' good, but it can hinder performance (gained speeds) if not correlated with the right wheel/tire combo sizes.
I personally realized this at the last Hybrid Trackday (@buttonwillow) & I keep forgetting that the 98 spec type-R uses a 16" wheel and I think a 45/series tire. And Honda did that, because of the 4.785 final drive. I personally have a CTR tranny, w/ 134 CTR gears, GSR 2&5th gears, and 4.785 fd. I used a GSR 2nd because I wanted a longer 2nd gear vs. the CTR 2nd (soo damn short with the 4.7fd..it's almost pointless to have 2nd gear). Anyways, I did some calculations (along with some friends) with my wheel/tire combo and final drive specs, and found that my final drive winds out to being something close to 4.8x! ewww. Too short, for me at least. This 4.8x ratio my car has right now, is actually hurting my speeds at the track, although I thought it was helping me.
So, to fix that, I need to heighten my front wheel settings. Either go 16" w/45 series tire or go 55 series tire on my current 15" wheels.
My point is...going with a tighter final drive doesn't always improve performance if you don't take the wheel/tire combo into account. Yes, it may 'feel' better but it's actually hurting you in other aspects of speeds. Also the 4.40FD shouldn't be hated upon by others...its a good final drive spec for a 15" wheel/tire combo. Honda knows whats up (at least 95% of the time)
Volk TE37 15 x 7
205/50 Yok AVS Intermediates (that are pretty much gone after this weekend)
ok thanks.
I just wanted to shed some light on the fact that wheel/tire combo specs should be taken into account when changing the final drive from 4.40 to 4.7 or higher FD's. Remember that if you run a 16" wheel or a taller tire, you'll have better speeds than you would with a 15" wheel with 50 series tire. I'm sure you know this, correct?
(not aimed at your RStoR....just some general info for others)
An upgraded FD might 'feel' good, but it can hinder performance (gained speeds) if not correlated with the right wheel/tire combo sizes.
I personally realized this at the last Hybrid Trackday (@buttonwillow) & I keep forgetting that the 98 spec type-R uses a 16" wheel and I think a 45/series tire. And Honda did that, because of the 4.785 final drive. I personally have a CTR tranny, w/ 134 CTR gears, GSR 2&5th gears, and 4.785 fd. I used a GSR 2nd because I wanted a longer 2nd gear vs. the CTR 2nd (soo damn short with the 4.7fd..it's almost pointless to have 2nd gear). Anyways, I did some calculations (along with some friends) with my wheel/tire combo and final drive specs, and found that my final drive winds out to being something close to 4.8x! ewww. Too short, for me at least. This 4.8x ratio my car has right now, is actually hurting my speeds at the track, although I thought it was helping me.
So, to fix that, I need to heighten my front wheel settings. Either go 16" w/45 series tire or go 55 series tire on my current 15" wheels.
My point is...going with a tighter final drive doesn't always improve performance if you don't take the wheel/tire combo into account. Yes, it may 'feel' better but it's actually hurting you in other aspects of speeds. Also the 4.40FD shouldn't be hated upon by others...its a good final drive spec for a 15" wheel/tire combo. Honda knows whats up (at least 95% of the time)
