95gsr@530

I hate to post a help me thread but i'm in strange situation and after searching the internet I can't find anything that matches my situation close enough to make a call. So, here's the criteria

New head gasket (felpro)
valve stem seals
intake/exhaust/tb/thermostat housing/valve cover gasket
deck'd the head .015"
machine shop did not pressure test (I was on a time frame, that's gone now)
compression: 150psi, cold, across the board
torque'd head studs in sequence, staged three times @ 22ftlb's, 44, and finished at 66. I know that's not factory but i'm reusing the bolts. I know that's bad please save the lecture unless you really think that's causing the symptoms that follow.



Symptoms

Fast idle
No vacuum
No MIL, but MIL does function i.e. KOEO on, KOER off.
After a minute the headers start to smoke like they're going to explode W/ smell of burning metal
smells a little sweet in the valve cover, but no water in the oil
no water on the dip stick
no steam coming out of the tail pipe, as though I was consuming coolant, but there seems to be water on the top of the pistons when I pull a spark plug.
for the most part, the combustion chamber seems normal. Smells a little like regular combustion, maybe a little on the rich side, but looks like theres a little coolant on top of the piston.
I just cleaned the tops of the pistons while the head was off, making it a little easier to discern what's going on in there.
A good cloud of steam in the intake manifold when I take a look in through the throttle plate
pulling the IACV connector makes the car idle much smoother


I think I'm consuming coolant, I think the IACV may be the culprit, but the lack of steam leaving the tail pipe is messing with that diagnosis.
The headers smoking scares me the worst, because although my oil pressure light comes on during KOEO, and off when engine running, if I unplug it while the engine is running the light doesn't come on. Do I need to ground the connector to test the circuit? Or is it's operation verified just by the KOEO on status, and off after fire up.
There is oil in the valve train, not flooded though
I don't want to drive it to the shop where all the test equipment and lift I have access to is without being damn certain I have oil making it to the mains/rods/cylinder walls/ and it's pretty clear there is oil making it to the head. Basically, I don't want to seize my motor in the 8 miles I have to drive it. I can go to auto zone and do the loan a tool thing if need be.

If anyone has any testing procedures they think I should run, or checks to be made, I would greatly appreciate it

my time frame for using the vehicle for thanksgiving travel is pretty much out of the question at this point.

I don't have an air compressor, or else I would've done a leak down. I'm probably going to get a cooling system pressure tester tomorrow morning, but a cooling system problem being related to a complete lack of vacuum is far fetched. Maybe two problems exist. Maybe more. maybe i'm totally f*****

thanks for your time

wunfstgsr

You could have a slight head gasket leak if theres coolant on top of the pistons.

#1 did you set the valve lash to spec when you assembled the head back on??

#2 The headers smoking is normal, they will usually smoke for a few secs untill all the grease and oil burns off the metal. Just let it warm up it will go away eventually.

#3 try tapping on the IACV while the engine is running it might be dirty and not working properly clean it out with brake cleaner.

#4 make sure the Map sensor and TPS sensor are not switched which i see all the time causing all sorts of issues upon start up.

#5 make sure your throttle body gasket is on correct, if put on the wrong way you will block ports in the TB that pull vacume.

95gsr@530

it's funny that you mention the throttle body because this morning I was having very these similar issues and noticed the throttle body gasket was the wrong way. It is definitely right now though. TPS and MAP are definitely right, I mark my connectors because if I don't I probably would switch them, being that I don't know the corresponding wire colors like the back of my hand. I will definitely tap on the IACV but I have already cleaned it w/ carb cleaner. I may take it off and disassemble it just to see what's going on in there. The smoke coming from the headers gets worse and worse the longer I run the thing, with the smell of burning bearings, but I'll wipe em down and try to ignore it during my next diagnosis attempt. I'm really leaning towards coolant in the intake I just don't know why i'm not spewing steam from the tail pipe, and why I don't have vacuum.

PVC passed the shake test, but I think I might take it off again and confirm flow.

I'm also going to ground the oil pressure sender to verify that circuit as well because honestly that's what i'm most concerned about. I don't wanna pull the drain plug to find oz.'s of bearing material, or seize. Valve lash was set and triple checked.

I'm also going to check the FATV. I think that's the right acronym, the fast idle thermo-valve, which is mounted to the under side of the throttle body. It is the source of the coolant for the system, and could potentially be leaking it and vacuum.


Thank you for the suggestions, I really appreciate it.

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

If coolant was entering your intake through the throttle body or intake manifold, you would notice a loss of coolant from the reservoir and it would show out the exhaust.

The smoking might just be from the oil/grease burning off the heated engine and exhaust components. It takes a short while to burn off if just sitting at idle in a garage.

How long have you had the engine running for? Are you shutting it down after 5 minutes of running with the fear something is wrong and you dont want to keep it running any longer? Have you driven the car since the work has been completed?

95gsr@530

Bumping this semi-old thread because it didn't rain today and I was actually able to pull back the tarp and do some wrenching. The farther I dig into this car the less faith I have in gsr pre-owner's around the world. The thing was ran through.
Besides the point. I had some electrical bs to work out and fired it up, let it idle to operating temp, and the whole time got white smoke from the tail pipe. Smelled kind of oily, and stuck around for longer than I would expect steam to. I pulled the plug of the cylinder that is using a junkyard injector temporarily to take a peak inside. Here's the results:

Oh yeah, idles high and doesn't change with ECT. After I snap the throttle Rpms bounce. The oil in the head looks kinda dirty but on the dip looks brand new. Crank-case pressures seem high, when I pull the filler cap it's pumping air pretty well. PCV passes the shake test, and I blew on through it and it does flow. Kinda bummed, put in a lot of hours and knuckle skin, and I would really like to drive back home for Christmas instead of taking the train. (Chico-Sacramento) here's some pictures:

SSBP-GSR

If that is a b18c, the compression is pretty low. Might be causing some of your issues. At this point you might wanna just start over fresh with a new headgasket and go slow and make sure its all 100%

95gsr@530

yeah since the original post I did take the head back off, and disassemble it for some new valve stem seals. Cleaned up the valves. Went really slow and my compression numbers did go up. 180 now, all of them, which is still kinda low I feel like but the uniformity is comforting. Leakage test was good tho, 100psi only 8-5psi escaped and no bubbles to the radiator cap. This comment I left last night was after the round two hg.

after doing some research I think the junkyard injector is probably a low resistance. I'm about to pick up some injectors today that are of the correct resistance and new plugs.

tony_2018

Check tps voltage, the ecu could be reading something different. Re-adjust the FITV and reset your idle to factory. These are couple things that need to be done since the car wasn't running for a while.

95gsr@530

tps is getting five volts and sending .5 to 4.5, I should dig back into the FITV fur sure. unplugging iacv and adjusting idle via the pintle on throttle body is useless. I'm 90% certain i'm consuming oil by way of valve stem seals. I did them my self, first time, and felpro one size fits all... yeah right. I'm gonna pull my exhaust manifold tomorrow and have a look at what was recently a perfectly clean set of valves. the smoke at the tail pipe goes away completely after long range freeway driving. and my oil consuming isn't extremely noticeable. theres never a significant drop on the stick.

wunfstgsr

If its not burning much then id leave them alone unless it smokes a good amount while driving.

But yea i wouldnt trust those seals, OEM seals are cheap and i wouldnt trust anything else.

95gsr@530

when I compare my biggest smoke cloud to the ones produced by other valve seal suspectors on the internet I feel like nit picker. I'm just a perfectionist, little things bug me. Since the exhaust valve stems are the smaller ones i'm assuming it is those ones that are leaking. I'll post pictures of what the backs of the valves/ports look like tomorrow when I pull the headers. other than that though car seems to be running pretty well. clutch is on its last leg, no surprise there. Got an exedy pro clutch kit OE replacement waiting to be installed once I can find the venue and help. Shop I go to for the specialty heavy tool demanding type jobs telling me 375$ to put in the new clutch. I'm not feeling it. Gonna keep looking. That's way too much right? I'm sure I could do it in the driveway theres just no saying how long it'd take, and how much knuckle skin i'd lose.

wunfstgsr

You can do it by your self! i did my clutch by my self in my drive way, then again i assembled the car pretty much bare as well but its not hard to do by your self.

ej8

After #2 HG do you still have coolant loss? If so, coolant loss would be the #1 issue you need to attend before anything else.

There are tools that can help aid you, and you should be able to get at your local parts store as a "loaner" tool so that it doesn't cost you in the end.

You need to get a leakdown tester, headgasket checker, and coolant system pressure checker. These tools are very easy to use and can help you identify and pinpoint an issue. I actually do many checks after a new engine before running. This lets you fix problems that would normally be detrimental to the engine.

95gsr@530

yeah I did leak down, compression, cooling system pressure, all checked out. (I only went up to 10 psi cooling system pressure test, but whatever, it held). Its gotta be the exhaust valve's stem seals. Maybe intake too, but because the exhaust's are smaller and felpro says one sizes fits all i'm thinking its exhaust. maybe both. Check the picture. I'm hoping after seeing this that my guides and valve stems aren't toast.

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

^^ What in that picture would give you the idea that your guides and valve stems are toast?

Start off by answering this :

Forget about valve stem seals and guides for now. You dont seem to think you have an oil consumption issue or leak. All the other issues like smoke from the headers and intake manifold are expected when you've reassembled the head components after theyve been cleaned.

ej8

Yes, please let us know! I also saw you didn't mention if you have used a headgasket checker, the kind with the dye. It turns colors if exhaust gasses are getting into the coolant system.

As far as the valveseals, I don't see it being wet and oily in there from the picture and it should be very obvious if it is enough to create noticeable smoke.

95gsr@530

No coolant loss. The oil consumption diagnosis is based on smell and smoke from the tail pipe. The exhaust manifold, when torque'd to spec and in sequence, would at times have liquid oil leaking from it. A very strange sight I looked at closely many times. I took it off to have a peak and there was oil all over the exhaust manifold gasket. I just drove it two hundred miles and I maybe lost 1/4 quart, maybe a little more. After tightening the exhaust manifold tighter than before, the smell of burning oil intensified, and came from a little hole in my exhaust just under the hatch. The picture shows, its kinda hard to see, small *** picture, but if you look at the out side edges of the picture there's liquid oil there. It was the same for all exhaust ports. I hadn't done any wet compression tests. There's no coolant loss in the 200 miles I've driven it but the coolant does look a little contaminated.

My train of thought currently: I fucked up by buying felpro products. I'm gonna pull the head a third time, using OEM valve stem seals and an OEM gasket. Since i'm already spending the money i'm probably gonna do ARP's with it. I'll take pictures and note my results.

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

Maybe its not the felpro products. The actual installation of the valve stem seals might have been the problem. Then again, I dont see any liquid oil inside the exhaust port...that little black ring where the edge of the exhaust manifold and head meet doesn't point to such an issue as you describe.

Come to think of it, I dont know anyone who has had valve seals that leaked so bad that oil coated the ex.manifold pipes. I'm not entirely sure thats possible. Oil leaking from the valve stem seals would enter the combustion chamber and burn out into fumes. The oil wouldn't have a chance to make it out of the exhaust ports in liquid form.

wunfstgsr

Exactly usually the oil that collects on the exhaust manifold gasket is either from the valve cover gasket or cam seals leaking and collecting in that area.

OP you can use the honda B series valve spring remover tool made for honda heads on ebay to remove the springs and replace the valve seals using a compressor to hold up the valves you dont have to take the head off!!

95gsr@530

I've seen some bad *** video's of people with nice specialty tools doing valve stems seals without removing the head, and I would go that route, if it weren't for the felpro product that is sealing what is arguably the most important job of any gasket. I'm a little bitter towards the company. I very easily could've installed the valve stem seals improperly, but I really took my time and double checked every one I did. Its not rocket science. Still a possibility. The liquid oil on the exhaust man. gasket tripped me out. I tried my best to prove it was coming from the valve covers but I could find no trace. Cam seals look dry as well. A look at the tops of my pistons is good indication that perfect combustion is a far cry from what's occurring internally for me. Smoke and smell of what's coming from the tail pipe only push me further to believe valve stem seals. I've only rule out rings because of leakage and compression tests. Not losing more than 10psi when inducing 100 in any cylinder. All were close, around 5-8. compression 180psi compression for each cylinder. NO bubbles at rad. cap. during leakage test. Oil is slowly accumulating where a piece of the h.g. sticks out from the head/block with a little gold rivet it looks like. If you've seen a felpro gasket you'll know what I mean. Definitely a little external oil leakage there and similarly on the other side.

Just today purchased many OEM Honda gaskets. 190$ worth, to be exact, which is actually less than what I paid napa for the **** felpro kit. head gasket, valve stem seals, exhaust/intake manifold gaskets, t.b. gasket, thermostat and thermostat gasket. Rocker arm shaft 20mm washers x3, oil control orifice assembly and o rings. Rocker arm oil control orifice o rings. I went all out. And ended up spending less over all than when I went to Napa. Live and learn...

95gsr@530

and at least the car is running currently. Not too terribly either. Got decent mileage going to sac and back from chico. 300 miles I've put on it in this condition and the oil in the head is real dirty looking while on the dip stick looks brand new. In this 300 miles I've changed the oil once, out of sheer paranoia, and it look'd alright.. didn't loose all that much, but definitely lost a little. I'm gonna do a full cooling system flush (thermo removed) and run distilled water only when I go back together this next time. I feel like I could better monitor contaminants this way. Since the car is running fine and school is out (forever, I graduated) I'm not feeling any pressure this time around. I've got the right parts on the way, and I definitely know my way around this cylinder head. I'll post pictures when the round 3 build goes down.

ej8

Make sure you look at the block closely too. Everyone worries about the head but often the block surface is neglected. MLS are much harder to seal than composite gaskets. The block surface AND head surface must meet Honda's RA spec to properly seal.

Also, you can put die in your oil and use a UV light to source leaks. Sounds like you possibly have a leak where the head gasket seals the oil ports.

95gsr@530

I definitely agree about the sealing of the oil ports. I don't think the hg is doing it's job there. The oem parts I have on the way should remedy that when installed properly.

I would love to check the block surface, although I don't have a machinist's straight edge/true/whatever you call the thing that's perfectly flat that you try to slip feeler gauge under. Next time I pull the head I don't plan on removing the whole block, which would enable me to take it to the machinist. So what's the best way to check for a warped block surface without having to buy a true? I've heard they are very expensive, although I haven't tried shopping around for them.

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

Thats the only way to accurately check for a warped block.

Amongst all your recent posts, there's nothing that gives the idea your head gasket isn't doing its job properly. There's more reason to assume fault for these issues instead of blaming the part manufacturers. In the event the HG isn't sealing properly, it may be due to using the old head bolts again or improperly seating the gasket while mating the head to the block. Maybe you didn't get the dowel pin seated all the way in the head? How are you certain the problem isn't caused by the block?

No one knows your ability to diagnose or repair automobiles, even if you've stated test results and technical terms that would give the impression that you know what you're doing. The smoke in the picture you posted looks to be white in color. That's not what smoke from burning oil looks like. I cant see why anyone would waste the time of re-doing work that isn't showing any real signs of failure.

wunfstgsr

I believe he came to that conclusion based on the fact he sees a small oil collecting at the corner of the head gasket where the brass rivit is. In my experience the head gasket doesnt leak and leaves oil collected in that area, i seen it to often where the person thinks iots the head gasket but its a common oil leak that collects down there usually from either the dist. O ring, vtec soliniod, the allen plug on the side of the head, and the cam cap seal. I just had a oil leak from the dist and it collected in that area.

I would assume if your head gasket was leaking it would get in your coolant and you would know. My advise if your going to change the seals is not remove the head and use the tool i told you but it seems you already ordered a hoard of new oem parts. Pull the head and have it inspected at the very least and check the block with a straight edge. Hopefully the new seals and headgasket works for ya.