patdemps

Alright. The main reason for starting this post is to give you my opinion on comparing all motor to turbo. Now what gave me this idea is because around 10 people from just the integra forum have asked me the difference between the 2 and what I had for setups, what im running for power, etc. So, im going to make a big thread out of it to try and break it all down and hopefully help some people out.

First, some information. My car is....
-1995 GSR with 64,000 miles.
-No AC, PS, Cruise, Rear wiper assembly, etc. Weighs in at 2,440lbs, that with full interior (seats, etc).

All Motor
the basics. I ran mobil 1 synthetic 5w30, oem oil filter, 93 octane gas, gm syncromesh friction modified tranny fluid. Compression was around 11.8:1

***Before you read my setup. Understand that I had stock cam gears, stock ecu, no fuel tuning, stock injectors, stock bottom end. Plenty of upgrades left for me to do, plus tuning. So there was a ton of potential still there before I decided to part it out.

My setup:
*DPR Stage 6 headwork -If you want to know exactly what this consist of check out there website, there is too much **** for me to type for all that, it upgraded my valvetrain, etc. This was specifically done for Toda Spec B cams, something I never got a chance to have. I ran ITR cams with the headwork.
*99' JDM ITR cams
*Toda Header
*2.5" Carsound cat
*2.67" Kakimoto Exhaust
*Skunk2 Intake Manifold
*AEM ITR intake
*ITR tranny with 4.785 JDM FD, Kaaz 1.5 way LSD, 7.5lb Fidanza Flywheel, B&M short throw shifter.
*Unorthodox underdrive pully
*AEM ported throttle body
*VAFC
*Koni Yellows/Neuspeed race springs
*16" rims with kuhmo supra 712's

Now the numbers. The car was dyno'd at 190whp and 128wtq untuned. The only thing that was changed at the dyno was the vtec engagement point. Thats it...no fuel tuning no nothing. Just a few dyno pulls. The car pulled very hard through vtec and had a pretty damn good powerband, vtec screamed too, sounded mean.

Track: I hit the track once with this entire setup I have listed above. I ran a 14.1 @98mph with a shitty 2.3 60ft time. The reason for that 60ft time is because I did it in a drizzle. Track was in shitty condition. The car had high 13's all over it no problem. Car weighed in at 2,590lbs with me in it during this track night. I ran the car with GSR cams and landed a 14.2 once too with a 2.1 60ft time, I then added the ITR cams and got the VTEC changed and then hit the track. But I got a shitty track night and it was the end of the track season and I put the car up for winter, so I never got another chance to run it. This was on 16" rims with crap kuhmo 712's. A set of drag radials, good driving, fuel tuning, cam gears, ecu work, higher redline, built bottom end this car was easily going to see mid 13's. And easily over 200whp with the right tuner. Throwing Toda Spec B's in there would have made it easily in the 210whp range no problem. Thats what the headwork was for and I never got a chance to actually take advantage of that.

I had a ton of run with the car. I beat some very credible cars on the street, it was very streetable and hooked up well with the help of the LSD, suspension setup. It was very reliable and never gave me any kind of trouble. VTEC sounded beautiful.....I miss it at times.

The reason I parted: I just needed more power and I wanted to try something different. I felt I had accomplished quite a bit with my all motor setup and I was ready to move onto the darkside. It just seemed like the most knowledgable approach to me reaching 12's.

I parted nearly everything out to honda-tech/team-integra members and hopefully made those people very happy

Now onto the darkside.

Turbo
the basics. I run mobil 1 synthetic 10w30, s2000 oil filter, 93 octane gas, gm syncromesh tranny fluid. Compression is 10:1. Street tuned for 7.25psi

The setup:
*Stock B18C1
*Precision sc34 turbo
*Inline Pro Manifold
*Tial 38mm Wastegate .5 bar (7.25psi)
*RC 550cc Injectors
*Revhard Intercooler piping/Charge pipe, etc.
*Spearco FMIC
*Greddy Type R BOV
*AEM Ported Throttle Body
*Skunk2 Intake Manifold
*Walbro 255 Fuel pump
*Uberdata as engine management. Street tuned by Phiz
*2.5" Revhard downpipe
*2.5" straight pipe, no cat
*2.67 Kakimoto Exhaust
*GSR Tranny with Dual Centerforce clutch, 7.5lb Fidanza flywheel, B&M short throw shifter
*16" Rota Circuit C8's w/ kumho ecsta
*Koni Yellows/Neuspeed race springs, Energy suspension mounts

Now I don't have any numbers. But from what my setup "should" "feels" like its yielding im pushing around 250whp. In that range. Ill be hitting the dyno pretty soon to get those numbers down to a T. Also, quite a bit of torque, turbo definately welcomed that world to my Teg. Its street tuned by Phiz, running more on the rich side to keep it safe, 7.25 psi, no cat and switched the vtec to 5,000 and it pulls damn hard all the way to redline. Car pulls very hard in every gear and thanks to my suspension setup it actually isn't too bad on wheel hop, once im out of 1st gear and part of 2nd. Its very very streetable. Im throwing in a Quaife lsd in the winter and that'll help even more.

I haven't tracked it yet. Ill keep this post updated or ill make a post once I hit the track. Probably in 2 weeks. With my buddies drag radials.

Just by making pulls on the street and driving this turbo GSR around for more then a month its been such a blast. The car pulls very hard, reaches full boost right around 4k, no turbo lag really at all. The turbo is perfect sized for the setup. It would pull several and I mean several car lengths on my all motor setup, its a night and day difference. It also sounds mean as hell and when that wastegate opens up its all over. You can just feel the power, it sits you back in your seat. The car is so much fun and tons of people have given me props on the whole turbo buildup that i've seen in the area or just from cruising. I've handed out a couple of V8 spankings and gotten a few from them. Its been a blast and im more then happy with my decision.

I plan to build up the bottom end and boost to around 10psi after the winter build up. Push around 300whp and have a very fast streetable Teg. Turbo is just a whole difference world and its a ton of fun.

Plus the fact that I spent around 3k for my entire setup (I already had the exhaust, suspesion) and I did the build with my buddy so that didn't really cost me much. That price also includes my price to pay my tuner. So its quite a price difference the power difference it quite a huge difference. I can easily build up my bottom end and boost the **** out of it and pull some crazy numbers, but I don't plan to do that. So, if your in it for a ton of power, turbo is the way to go. There both pricey no matter what way you look at it. And turbo is just as reliable if you get yourself the right tuner and engine management and you keep up on maintenance, etc. the normal stuff.

If anyone has any questions just ask away on this or you can PM me. I'd be more then happy to assist anyone with my own personal experience or suggestions. Also, Im trying to get pics of the all motor and then the turbo so im working on that too for this thread, that won't be until this weekend though. But im working on it. Thanks for reading, hope this helped atleast one person

Ti3d in

So if you had to do it all over again once....N/A or turbo?

patdemps

Turbo without even a thought. NA was great don't get me wrong, but turbo is just a different world.

PIC Performance

Nice write up.
I'm curious as to how you achieved 11:8:1 compression on your n/a setup though. You say you kept the bottom end stock, and no thinner headgasket was mentioned. Does the DPR headwork modify the combustion chambers somehow to increase compression?
Also, 10:1 is a tad high for boost, no?
btw, VERY nice N/A setup you had there, too bad you never tossed in those Toda bumpsticks

PhantomSTi

Nice write up, def looking forward to my setup

EG-B20vtec

Wow.

I realize that every Red-Blooded American is entitled to his/her own opinion so don't take this the wrong way, but....

You completely neglected the philosophy behind "all motor" performance.

POWER to WEIGHT is THE most important factor.
You missed that by a mile.

Example: 2440(+150lb Driver) with 190hp and 128tq.

Simple math = 2590/190 = 13.63 lbs per hp

So of course you would love the new setup,

at let's say = 2590 (+50lbs for Turbo Parts and Controllers)

= 2640/250 = 10.56 lbs per hp

Try this setup though and you'll quickly rekindle your "All Motor" interests.

1800lbs (+ 150lb Driver) and 214hp 156tq

with a more than ideal 9.11lbs per hp.

This thread could be very misleading for those noob's who are just getting started.

I'm just trying to use the "Force" and help my cause because the last thing we need is more noob's joining the Dark Side.

PIC Performance

A daily driven DC2 is never going to see 1800 #'s. The typical person at the FI/NA crossroads probably will not want to strip their teg down to race-prep conditions, and if he/she is, they probably know enough to choose the path on their own.
The power/weight ratio is a driving principle behind both NA and FI, not just NA. An NA specific philosophy might be to make power with revs, way up high.

EG-B20vtec

You got me on the weight issue, maybe I should've been more clear.

An 1800lb EG or EH if you want to be ridiculouly correct on chassis designations.

How about a 2100lb DC2 with 260hp NA?

That's 8 lbs per giddy-up.

Making power with revs doesn't really apply to all NA builds by the way.

How many 2.4L K-series do you expect to see in the astronomical revs of 10k?

Goose-Egg my friend.

And that is the Future of 8 sec. All Motor Honda Performance.

Power with Revs for b16a
Power with Revs for K-series.

riceball777

nice write up
yeah turbo is always the way to go
you will never get the torque and bottom end pull like aturbo from a na car
i mean your turbo teg will probably beat my fully built na teg and it probably much more streetable than my car
with an na car with decient size cams it will idel ruff and over all drivability isent all that great

turbo is the way to go
and this is coming from a person with a fully built na lsvtec pushing about 200whp

PIC Performance

There have been a few stories of k-series owners seeing 9300/9500 out there, and hytech supposedly is hitting 10k with their motor. So its possible, but since there are no cams out there at this time that make power that high, there's no point in doing it.
A company called RSX-Tuners offers to engine "kits" as well, that rev past 9k and give roughly 300whp.
edit: An 1800 CRX or something with a fully built NA b18c5 putting down 250whp would surely be something to behold on the track, I'm sure. But then, imagine an 1800lb CRX with a turbo motor putting down 250whp; just as good, if not better. Lighter is better for both NA and FI. But its clearly more beneficial on the NA side, what with the inherent difficulties of making power NA, you need all the advantages you can get.

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You got me on the weight issue, maybe I should've been more clear.

An 1800lb EG or EH if you want to be ridiculouly correct on chassis designations.

How about a 2100lb DC2 with 260hp NA?

That's 8 lbs per giddy-up.

Making power with revs doesn't really apply to all NA builds by the way.

How many 2.4L K-series do you expect to see in the astronomical revs of 10k?

Goose-Egg my friend.

And that is the Future of 8 sec. All Motor Honda Performance.

Power with Revs for b16a
Power with Revs for K-series.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

dude...a 260WHP all motor teg will cost you a pretty penny and some!! not to mention...i don't even think it would even be streetable and would probably sound like a hot rod(which i really don't mind...but i hate seeing those pretty blue/red lights in my rearview mirror). and why would you want to revv your motor to 10k to make power?? that's totally useless on a street car. i could see that in a full race blown car...but wasn't this topic on a street teg??


oh, and another fact for you...K series motors don't need to revv that high to make MORE power than a B16 motor. and a K series motor making the same amount of WHP a B16 motor is will stomp all over the B16 motor. more torque and more HP in more useful areas under the curve.

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

Oh, and by the way...GREAT write up Patrick! glad you like the darkside. wait till you try boosting 15 psi...lol. it's better to use a diaper then, rather than wear boxers...lol.

EG-B20vtec

To shermanyang,

You obviously can't read. I said nothing in favor of 10k rpm.

I mentioned nothing of speeding. Although, I know of very few Turbo Hondas that obey all posted speed limits. Doh!

260whp can be streetable hence the magical (high lift) third cam lobe I'm sure you've heard alot about. (That means that the primary's can idle similar to stock. )

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shermanyang &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i could see that in a full race blown car...but wasn't this topic on a street teg??</TD></TR></TABLE>
...but wasn't this topic biased by an incomplete assessment? Yes!

BTW.Streetability is in the eyes of the driver.

Remember the rule.
An All motor Honda with 230hp vs a Turbo Honda with 230hp will almost always win.

obd2gsr

i'm in that same boat...

i think turbo is the only answer

hollaATyourBOY

i've heard something about turboing LS's and going NA with GS-Rs due to the vtech high rev idea. care to elaborate?

B00ST2nR

I'm goin from NA to FI pretty soon. I'll write my own write-up then.... but I'm pretty sure it'll be alot like this one.

B00ST!

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To shermanyang,

You obviously can't read. I said nothing in favor of 10k rpm.

I mentioned nothing of speeding. Although, I know of very few Turbo Hondas that obey all posted speed limits. Doh!

260whp can be streetable hence the magical (high lift) third cam lobe I'm sure you've heard alot about. (That means that the primary's can idle similar to stock. )


...but wasn't this topic biased by an incomplete assessment? Yes!

BTW.Streetability is in the eyes of the driver.

Remember the rule.
An All motor Honda with 230hp vs a Turbo Honda with 230hp will almost always win.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


sorry that was my mistake...i was distracted by my daugther...(babies i tell ya!!). i see your point...yes a 230whp honda will surely win against a 230whp turbo'd teg given that the turbo'd teg is using a large turbo which produces lag. but then again, i'm sure you'd have to spend a lot more making your all motor honda reach those power goals, where as you could just slap on almost any turbo system made for the b-series motor and achieve those power goals with less money and hassle. not to mention increasing your power levels are as easy as turning a **** or pressing a button(if and when properly tuned).

and most if not all the 230+whp hondas i've seen idle like **** and have b series motors jammed into tiny little stripped out EFs or EGs, and usually run open header which is louder than BEEP!!

but then again...most of the N/A cars up here in MN belong to ghetto kids with stolen motors doing stock ls and b20 vtecs. i'm sure 250whp on an N/A car could be achieved without making the car sound like *** on the streets. i just haven't seen it done before that's all.


Modified by shermanyang at 7:07 AM 7/20/2004


Modified by shermanyang at 4:28 AM 7/22/2004

FastAllmotorLsVtec

nice me personality i like all motor but i could get a turbo car.....na 250ish howpower come on now

Sack Master

Thats a very good write up my friend . I do think you had some tuning issues though. I went best et 14.0 and best mph of 100(probably both freak runs but was averaging a 14.3-4 at about 97-98) with nothing more done internally than itr cams on street tires. I am very confident I could have run a 13 with slicks or even a good set of drag radials. Thats with a 2.2 60ft. Your biggest issue was that you probably didn't have the proper fuel/timing in that beast.

I'm not in anyway arguing with you but I think too many people think that a turbo is the answer. Granted it is much easier to hit 12s with a turbo than a normally aspirated set-up. But that is the advantage of manipulating atmospheric pressure.

My preference is I am much more impressed with an all motor car that runs a 12.5 than a turbo car that runs a 12.5.

Now I'm not as good at writing articles as many of you. So I won't nore anyone with my technical jargon. The only thing I know is cars and useless tidbits of information that in no way benifit society.

Aside from that it is a very good write up but I think you will get opposition from some all motor guys. Props to you. Hope you like that turbo and it runs good for a long time.

jDMJeRk

nice work.

FastAllmotorLsVtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sack Master &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My preference is I am much more impressed with an all motor car that runs a 12.5 than a turbo car that runs a 12.5.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

word

ChillOutWayne

Nice write, im in the same boat, has basically the same setup before, and basically the same setup now, and couldnt agree more. Boost is fun, torque is addictive.
In yur sig is says PHIZ tuned, any dyno numbers yet&gt;?

patdemps

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChillOutWayne &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice write, im in the same boat, has basically the same setup before, and basically the same setup now, and couldnt agree more. Boost is fun, torque is addictive.
In yur sig is says PHIZ tuned, any dyno numbers yet&gt;?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No dyno numbers yet. Just street tuned on a wideband using Uberdata. Running basically a straight 12:1 afr and my vtec was raised to 5000 rpms. It pulls hard and smooth.

ChillOutWayne

nice im on the homo *** hack right now, keepin it safe at 5psi till uberdata is in in the next week or so, then ive got my 10psi spring to throw in, should be fun then.

patdemps

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sack Master &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats a very good write up my friend . I do think you had some tuning issues though. I went best et 14.0 and best mph of 100(probably both freak runs but was averaging a 14.3-4 at about 97-98) with nothing more done internally than itr cams on street tires. I am very confident I could have run a 13 with slicks or even a good set of drag radials. Thats with a 2.2 60ft. Your biggest issue was that you probably didn't have the proper fuel/timing in that beast.

As I stated in my original post the car was untuned. Tuned it was an easy 200whp car and easily a mid/high 13 sec. car at the track. I only tracked it once with the setup, got 2 runs at the track. Both same times. It got rained out, the track was slick and nobody was running good times. So, yes I understand what your saying, but the car was far from tuned and the car was far from its potential. It however was still very quick for an all motor teg.
I'm not in anyway arguing with you but I think too many people think that a turbo is the answer. Granted it is much easier to hit 12s with a turbo than a normally aspirated set-up. But that is the advantage of manipulating atmospheric pressure.

My preference is I am much more impressed with an all motor car that runs a 12.5 than a turbo car that runs a 12.5.

I do agree with that. However, lets compare dollar bills. You will spend easily grands more on a all motor setup to hit those figures then a turbo car. Thats a fact. Plus to get lower then a 12.5 your looking at some serious weight reduction or another vehicle to throw that engine in. With turbo you could build the **** out of it, get some slicks, run over 500whp and easily see numbers you never could with all motor.

Now I'm not as good at writing articles as many of you. So I won't nore anyone with my technical jargon. The only thing I know is cars and useless tidbits of information that in no way benifit society.

Aside from that it is a very good write up but I think you will get opposition from some all motor guys. Props to you. Hope you like that turbo and it runs good for a long time. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Im a huge all motor guy. I've still tried helping nearly all the guys out that are going all motor. Remember I was there and I had a setup that was pretty impressive. So, I know. I do also know how expensive it is and if you can't install your own parts and do your own labor its very costly.

To end this post. Check out this next statement.

It costed me $3,100 for my turbo setup (including tuning). I had the clutch/flywheel/exhaust already. So it would have been more with those. So, lets keep that in there as part of both setups. It costed me $2,000 for my headwork and around $1,000 for my Toda Header, and another $330 for my ITR cams. Now thats already more then 3,100 that I spent to go faster. Thats not even including my Type R tranny, jdm final drive, kaaz lsd, etc.

Remember I wasn't tuned all motor. That setup wasn't completed. However it was still very strong and pulled nicely. The turbo puts it to shame though. Even though I had excellent gearing with my ITR tranny setup. My teg now would walk on it.