Go Back   Honda-Tech > Honda and Acura Model-Specific Technical Forums > Acura Integra
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search


Welcome to Honda-Tech!
Welcome to Honda-Tech.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Honda-Tech community today!


Reply
 
 
 
submit to reddit
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-12-2011, 10:26 PM   #1
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

I'm still having a soft brake pedal after bleeding my brakes four times (using the two man method). I recently upgraded my front brakes to the 11" mini cooper rotors & legend 2 pots with hawk hps pads. I did the bed in procedure on the pads correctly and bled the system four times in the right bleeding sequence (i have a 01 DC) but I'm still having a soft pedal. Someone suggested gravity bleeding but I have yet had the time to try that out.


Here's some things i notice:

-brake booster should be good, the pedal holds firm after I pump it several times while car is off and drops a little when the car is started
-brake vacuum holds fine, no rpm jump
-the pedal doesn't drop to the floor while at a stop light so I'm pretty sure the master cylinder is OK and yes it is original

On a side note...my rear's have been squeaking while driving. It's because the pad's are low, about 1cm left. This should have no effect on the pedal right?

So what could it possibly be that is causing my pedal to be so soft now? Internal leak in master cylinder?
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 10:59 PM   #2
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 551
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

were you able to rotate the calipers to get the bleeder up top?

If so, I wonder if it's worth taking it into a shop to bleed them under pressure and force the air out... ?
mark@silbernage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 09:40 AM   #3
Honda-Tech Member
 
TREESnoseeds787's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 513, Ohio
Posts: 528
iTrader Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to TREESnoseeds787
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm

Those are worth making ^

I'm not a brake expert by any means, but it looks like you have done most of the troubleshooting. The only other thing I could think of is the possibility of a weak rubber brake hose possibly expanding under pressure? Causing the pedal to slowly get soft as you mentioned. Hopefully others will chime in on this subject.
TREESnoseeds787 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 10:34 AM   #4
Honda-Tech Member
 
JOE_DC4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 180
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

For one, one centimeter of pad life left is more than most pads come with brand new... You mean one millimeter? As for the bleeding. Have you gotten the brakes to work properly before the pedal issue? If not, then the problem probably lies in the modification you did, not the bleeding. The pedal pressure loss is most likely due to the fact that you upgraded caliper (piston) size but did not upgrade the size of your MC. All these components are designed to work with each other, change one, and you change the dynamics of the system..

Last edited by JOE_DC4ever; 12-13-2011 at 11:00 AM.
JOE_DC4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 10:38 AM   #5
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 467
iTrader Rating: (0)
Gefallt - add me for FORZA!
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

FSM:

Not sure if you have done all this.



BRAKE BOOSTER INSPECTION

Functional test:
1. With the engine stopped, Depress the brake pedal several times, then depress the pedal hard and hold that pressure for 15 seconds. If the pedal sinks, the master cylinder, brake line or a brake caliper is faulty
2. Start the engine with the pedal depressed. If the pedal sinks slightly, the vacuum booster is working. If the pedal height does not vary, the booster or the check valve is faulty

Leak Test:
1. Depress the brake pedal with the engine running then stop the engine. If the pedal height does not vary while depressed for 30 seconds, the vacuum booster is OK. If the pedal rises, the booster is faulty
2. With the engine stopped, depress the brake pedal several times using normal pressure. When the pedal is first depressed, it should be low. On consecutive applications, the pedal height should gradually rise. If the pedal position does not vary, check the booster check valve.

Check valve test:
1. Disconnect the brake booster vacuum hose at the booster.
2. Start the engine and let it idle. There should be a vacuum available. If no vacuum is available, the check valve is not working correctly. Replace the check valve and retest.

END TEST
sebTeggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 11:05 AM   #6
Honda-Tech Member
 
JOE_DC4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 180
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

The way hydraulics work, is that the force applied to the MC gets multiplied by the ratio between the sizes of the two pistons (caliper piston/s and MC push rod). The output piston (the caliper piston) moves much less but with more force while the input piston (MC push rod) moves much more but requires less force.

So let say your original caliper piston area is 1 square inch and your MC push rod area is .25 inch. In this instance if 100 pounds of force is applied to the MC through the pedal, then the force at the caliper will be 400 pounds (ratio of the areas of the pistons is 4:1)

So now you upgraded to lets say 1.5 square inch caliper pistons. Since the MC is the same, the force at the caliper is now 600 lbs. Which sounds good until you realize that your car is going to start slowing down with roughly the same amount of pressure on the pads as before... So ASSUMING that the car only NEEDS 400 lbs to slow down as before, then you calculate backwards and find out that that with the new ratio of piston sizes (6:1) your foot only needs to input 67 lbs.. this effectively reduces the pedal pressure you are used to.
JOE_DC4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 11:16 AM   #7
Honda-Tech Member
 
DirtyDA9's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Suburbs of Philadelphia
Posts: 3,658
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOE_DC4ever View Post
For one, one centimeter of pad life left is more than most pads come with brand new... You mean one millimeter? As for the bleeding. Have you gotten the brakes to work properly before the pedal issue? If not, then the problem probably lies in the modification you did, not the bleeding. The pedal pressure loss is most likely due to the fact that you upgraded caliper (piston) size but did not upgrade the size of your MC. All these components are designed to work with each other, change one, and you change the dynamics of the system..
Brake pads are measured by 32nds of an inch. The lowest a pad can be to pass inspection is 2/32nds, most pads new are about 6-8/32nds. For example, take a penny, 2/32nds is from the outside egde of the penny (above abe's head) to the top of his head.
__________________
Sie können keine Zauber Honda ohne DA

My other car is a DSM (478hp ran 11's)
DirtyDA9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 11:23 AM   #8
Honda-Tech Member
 
JOE_DC4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 180
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Good to know.. ^^ but also validates my point. At most you say a new pad has 8/32 on an inch.. that is only 6.35 millimeters.. he said he had low pad life with 1 cm (10 mm) of pad left...
JOE_DC4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 11:33 AM   #9
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Sorry guys, I probably meant 5mm of pad since they are already starting to squeal. I believe the min thickness is no less than 2mm of pad in order to be considered "safe". I don't think pad has to do anything with the softness of the pedal, maybe the initial bite only.

I had already swapped sides of the calipers so now the bleeder valve is at the top, about 10 o clock. I completed the bleeding sequence four times and the pedal is still soft.

I understand that it's important to upgrade the master cylinder to a larger size if I have bigger piston calipers but I have an 01 integra..isn't my master cylinder a full size already? I thought about that once, having a bigger calper with two pistons vs one would mean I would have to push the pedal farther?

And I will try to complete the brake booster test. What other reasons could it be?
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 01:29 PM   #10
Honda-Tech Member
 
JOE_DC4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 180
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

You are correct, the MC and brake booster should be sufficient to run those calipers. Try using a vacuum bleeder and a clear tube to make sure no air is left in the system. I'm sure the MC, Brake booster, and hoses are all fine... Things don't just go bad coincidentally after you modify something. That means the problem should lie in the bleeding procedure, the alignment of the calipers/rotor, or possibly just bad calipers..
JOE_DC4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 01:49 PM   #11
Honda-Tech Member
 
standy xsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New zealand
Posts: 690
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Im assumeing you refiled your brake fluid after bleed? jus asking as you didnt say it
standy xsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 02:51 PM   #12
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Correct, the resevoir was topped off every now and then during the bleeding process and I did have the resevoir cap closed until the pedal was fully released.

What will a vacuum bleeder do that a two man method can't? I don't want to buy it if it's not going to help at all =/
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 04:28 PM   #13
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,056
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennyjai View Post
I did have the resevoir cap closed until the pedal was fully released.
You did mean to say you meant that you kept the caliper bleeder screw closed until the pedal was released, yes?
TheRealTegger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 06:31 PM   #14
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Yes, closed bleeder before pedal released but I am saying that the resevoir is closed until the pedal was released before I ever topped it off, that way I wouldn't be sucking in air.

I honestly can't think of any other reasons that make cause the pedal to be soft still. I also noticed that when im at a stoplight, the height of the brake pedal is about EQUAL to the free gas pedal (meaning no foot on gas pedal). Is this normal? I think the brake pedal's about half way depressed.
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 07:26 PM   #15
Honda-Tech Member
 
90_EX_Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: PA, US
Posts: 3,681
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

does your car still have abs? if it does, did you bleed your abs unit?
90_EX_Civic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 07:55 PM   #16
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Yes I do, but I don't know how to bleed it. I don't even think I can, don't only the older teg's have a ABS resevoir? I thought the new tegs have a smaller ABS unit.
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 08:18 PM   #17
Honda-Tech Member
 
DirtyDA9's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Suburbs of Philadelphia
Posts: 3,658
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Did you bleed them in the correct order?

Edit: nevermind, you said you did it in the proper sequence...
__________________
Sie können keine Zauber Honda ohne DA

My other car is a DSM (478hp ran 11's)
DirtyDA9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 08:49 PM   #18
Honda-Tech Member
 
1998GsRIntegra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,668
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Well now that you have me contemplating returning every part I just bought to do the exact same upgrade you did...lets just say I will be following this thread closely.

Your saying that your pedal is spongy and you have much less pedal travel? If I understood you correctly.

And yes, the newer tegs (can't remember exactly what year) no longer had the seperate bleeder on the abs module.

Have you tried a hot bleed yet?
__________________
/// TAS Wheels
www.TASwheels.com
1998GsRIntegra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 05:36 PM   #19
Honda-Tech Member
 
Kennyjai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 228
iTrader Rating: (3)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

what's a hot bleed? I kind of hate my new calipers too, I drove in the rain today and they got all rusted...like the rain water on rotors look (the orange powder)
__________________
01 SSM DC4 (my daily driver)
Vouches: greasemonkee, Atmosfear, JDM_DAKiD, RDSDC2, JUSTIN@AUTOFAIR, safedriver
Kennyjai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 05:55 PM   #20
Honda-Tech Member
 
1998GsRIntegra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,668
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennyjai View Post
what's a hot bleed? I kind of hate my new calipers too, I drove in the rain today and they got all rusted...like the rain water on rotors look (the orange powder)
A "hot bleed" would be bleeding the brakes on a car as soon as it gets back in the paddock from an on track session. When the system is hot any air will have expanded more so than under normal use making it easier to bleed out. Basically go to a safe area and do 60 to 5 or 10 mph stops until you get some brake fade. Drive around and let them cool down a bit. Then go and bleed the brakes. Don't actually come to a complete stop though during the process as you will leave an imprint of the pad onto the rotor.

Also, not sure if you went with SS lines when you did the install, but I would highly recommend them. The OEM lines deteriorate and flex more when they age resulting in a spongy pedal.

You may want to consider changing out the brake fluid as well. Over time mositure builds up in it reducing its boiling point, and thus rendering it not as effective.

Out of pure curiousity, did you buy raybestos re-manned calipers? I ask because I did and if you also did and they rusted that quick I'll paint mine with some g2 paint before I install them.

EDIT: Having low rear pads will effect your pedal travel a bit as the piston needs to be pushed out farther to clamp the pads thus using more fluid and as a result increasing the pedal travel.
__________________
/// TAS Wheels
www.TASwheels.com
1998GsRIntegra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 07:02 PM   #21
y u rusty doe?
 
solbrothers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Erf
Posts: 4,336
iTrader Rating: (1)
solbrothers
Send a message via AIM to solbrothers
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

you need to bleed your abs unit
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 94EG8 View Post
Some guys get tattoos together, some guys go to the gym together, then there's Ash and Solbrothers: Lifetime alignments together
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rguy View Post
I actually laughed. Well done sol.
solbrothers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 09:07 PM   #22
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by solbrothers View Post
you need to bleed your abs unit
Was about to say the same thing
Corollz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 09:48 PM   #23
Honda-Tech Member
 
90_EX_Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: PA, US
Posts: 3,681
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennyjai View Post
Yes I do, but I don't know how to bleed it. I don't even think I can, don't only the older teg's have a ABS resevoir? I thought the new tegs have a smaller ABS unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solbrothers View Post
you need to bleed your abs unit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corollz View Post
Was about to say the same thing

there should be a bleed valve on top the abs unit. and hate to say it, but do a how to search on bleeding the abs unit.
90_EX_Civic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 10:23 PM   #24
Honda-Tech Member
 
brownboi512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: ga
Posts: 7
iTrader Rating: (0)
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

i had a similar problem last year. brake pedal kept going to the ground even after bleeding multiple times. fixed it by replacing the brake master cylinder and bleeding from there. i didnt see a leak in the MC, but it was failing. just a thought to check it out if bleeding doesnt fix your problems.
brownboi512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2011, 10:50 AM   #25
Honda-Tech Member
 
fd380ps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 25
iTrader Rating: (0)
Send a message via AIM to fd380ps
Default Re: Soft brake pedal after bleeding brakes, help!!

I had that same problem after i replaced my master cylinder on my race car. I fixed it by removing the master cylinder and bleeding it off the car.

I used table vise to hold the master,
I stuck to 1/4" hose on the outlet of master and had it returned to the reservoir.
Used a screw driver to pump the master until the bubbles are gone.

hope this helps

Andrew
__________________
96 civic B16B
DROWsports
Honda Ruckus Parts and accessories
fd380ps is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 
submit to reddit
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need Brake Help ASAP! deproux Honda Civic/Del Sol (1992 - 2000) 20 07-26-2014 02:19 PM
bad brake booster? YuckyCorpse Suspension & Brakes 0 03-15-2013 05:14 PM
soft and spongy brake pedal for 96 Honda Accord EX tt3 Honda Accord (1990 - 2002) 2 01-09-2010 05:52 PM
Brake pedal still soft Jooleeus Honda CRX / EF Civic (1988-1991) 8 02-24-2008 10:20 AM
blead my brakes and pedal is still soft... bad MC? euclid Acura Integra Type-R 19 06-28-2004 01:59 PM


Tags
bleed, bleeding, brake, brakes, cooper, gravity, hondatech, installing, low, mini, pedal, pressure, rdx, soft, spongy, starting

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:44 PM.



2014 Copyright, InternetBrands Inc.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Honda and the Honda marquee are registered trademarks of the American Honda Motor Company, Inc. Neither American Honda Motor Company nor its subsidiaries or affiliates shall bear any responsibility for Honda-Tech.com content, comments, or advertising. Honda-Tech.com is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Company in any way. American Honda Motor Company does not sponsor, support, or endorse Honda-Tech.com in any way. Copyright/trademark/sales mark infringements are not intended or implied.
Emails & Contact Details