Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

I've been reading up on these topics for the last few days. I want people to post FACTS, not myths and hearsay. There tends to be contradicting statements in a lot of threads that I have sifted through (archives).

Here is the general consensus:

- lowering one's car effects the camber and the toe
- 'camber wear' is a mythical term
- it is the 'toe' that actually causes the inner wear

I've read that getting a good alignment with near 0 degree toe will save your tires, not camber kits. Having negative camber, but with 0 toe will still give nearly even tire wear.

Now here's my question. Most of my driving is on highway. Even with 0 toe, will the insides wear faster than I'd want them to?
I believe I do more highway driving than most folks who are stating that 0 toe with neg camber will give 'near even wear'.
I know logically, I've answered my own question in this post; but like I said, I believe I do more highway driving than most.

Thanks.

FYI, some helpful links that I've ran across from my search:

http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/...87420
http://home.earthlink.net/~civ....html

Feel free to post knowledge; but please reread sentence #2 in this post prior to doing so.

-Championship-

my toe is at 0 and tires still have inner wear due to camber :shrugs:

SleeperGSR

You're kidding yourself if you think that camber wear is a myth. If your running a negitive camber the inside of the tire wears faster. If toe is off tires will wear faster too. You are right in the fact that lowering will effect toe and camber. But just fixing the toe your tires will still wear because the camber will be off. Everything plays a part and is related to handling and tire wear. And if you're on the highway alot your tires will be up at temperature alot especially if the camber is off and they will wear faster.

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I didn't mean to come off saying that camber wear is non-existent, but from what I've collected, it's the toe that kills people's tires.

It seems that there are plenty of members that have run w/o camber kits, at low ride height and have minimal inner wear.

VTEC_PRODUCTION

the toe should not really be affected by lowering your car...and its actually a fact that from the factor they are not aligned at 0...they are align that if you dose while driving they will slowly take you off the road to the right so you dont go into oncoming traffic...but its camber that causes uneven wear and thats what goes out of alignment when you alter the suspension

DS002

Toe is the number one tire wearing angle, if your toe is fucked your tires will suffer. Camber will cause wear the in the inside or outside edges depending on if it is positive or negative. Caster effects the steering of the vehicle for the most part, things like wheel return and wander or shimmy. If you lower your car the first thing you should do is get an alignment, although camber more than likely wont be back into manufacturer specification you can get toe easily back into spec just by spinning the tie rods in or out to push or pull the steering kuckle away from or towards vehicle centerline.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTEC_PRODUCTION &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the toe should not really be affected by lowering your car...and its actually a fact that from the factor they are not aligned at 0...they are align that if you dose while driving they will slowly take you off the road to the right so you dont go into oncoming traffic...but its camber that causes uneven wear and thats what goes out of alignment when you alter the suspension</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is to compensate for road crown, roads are actually laid at an angle so water flows off of them instead of forming puddles.

dc2leftovers

everyone is right, im an suspension and alignment tech at a honda dealership, but lowering doesnt really affect toe as it does camber. toe on a honda is usually a bad hub or a misadjusted tie rod on the front and the rear has a trailing arm that is adjustable. on integras and most hondas toe is the only adjustable alignment angle so to be done correctly you should purchase a camber/caster kit along with your coilovers or whatever. some negative camber is wanted if u plan on SCCA or anything like that but for drag racing and general handling you want 0 camber because the more camber in either direction the less of your tire touching the pavement

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

No other input?

St Jimmy

If you think about it, when you have more camber its putting more pressure or weight on the inside of the tires, So one would think that would cause the inside to wear more. But when you have tow in or out its horrible for your tires, alot worse than camber is.

DCFIVER

Any modifications made to your cars ride height will affect Your alignment angles. The camber myth is incorrect. Although toe wear is the most common problem on most cars ,the tires can and will be affect by incorrect camber angles. The only angle that will not cause tire wear is caster. Lowering your car will change your toe angles so an alignment should be done..

SleeperGSR

I don't know what more imput you want. Basically what everyone has said if you modify any part of the cars suspension you should get an alignment. The correct toe/camber angles will be different in different applications and driving styles. And what you gain in handling from extreme toe/camber angels you will lose in tire wear. It's all about finding the balance for you, your budget, and your application. Lots of reading material on suspension tuning on the net and at barns and noble.

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know what more imput you want. Basically what everyone has said if you modify any part of the cars suspension you should get an alignment. The correct toe/camber angles will be different in different applications and driving styles. And what you gain in handling from extreme toe/camber angels you will lose in tire wear. It's all about finding the balance for you, your budget, and your application. Lots of reading material on suspension tuning on the net and at barns and noble.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Getting an alignment wasn't in question. I am trying to get the general consensus and facts on this topic, and in this thread itself there are differing statements. The link I posted pretty much covers it, but I'm wanting to hear what everyone has to say.

SleeperGSR

Most of that link was very informative. I would still suggest a camber kit if you plan to lower your car. Well let me rephrase if you plan to really drive your car after you lower it i would get a camber kit. If you're building a show car and not concerned about handling then i could see where you might spend your money elsewhere. But if you're going to auto-x and go to the track then you would want to be able to adjust all of your suspension components

DCFIVER

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nihonjin.Desu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Getting an alignment wasn't in question. I am trying to get the general consensus and facts on this topic, and in this thread itself there are differing statements. The link I posted pretty much covers it, but I'm wanting to hear what everyone has to say. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually I dont see where the post's differ. If any one was incorrect I would have pointed it out. The only statement that was wrong was that camber does not cause tire wear...

dc2leftovers

CB7-R just curious how does lowering a car affect toe? not saying your wrong because you definitely are right about toe causing more wear than camber but how does ride height affect if the tire is angled left or right? and if toe is affected why would you need any kind of camber caster kit? toe is adjustable using tie rods and adjusting the rear trailing arm.

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cb7-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Actually I dont see where the post's differ. If any one was incorrect I would have pointed it out. The only statement that was wrong was that camber does not cause tire wear...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not disagreeing with what you said.

Someone posted that toe isn't effected by lowering.

Your stance on this topic is acknowledged.

DCFIVER

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dc2leftovers &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CB7-R just curious how does lowering a car affect toe? </TD></TR></TABLE>

You know to be honest I cant tell you the mechanical reason behind the toe change but from my expeirence of doing hundreds of alighnments over the years the toe always changes relative to camber angle. Alignment angles are adjusted in this order always: Caster ,camber ,toe. If you set the toe first then adjust the camber the toe will change. If you have a car with adjustable coilovers (I do) then you can see this affect first hand. Set the toe at a specific ride height then lower that ride height and the toe will change guranteed...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dc2leftovers &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and if toe is affected why would you need any kind of camber caster kit? toe is adjustable using tie rods and adjusting the rear trailing arm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You need camber kits because most Hondas do not have provisions for adjusting camber.

dc2leftovers

ok i didnt look at it like that now that i think about it that is why the alignment angle is in the order it is kuz itll all change under certain circumstances. thanks man

dwn2earth922

I agree. I read garbage (edited) every day written by people that haven't the slightest clue of what they're talking about. Instead they should just say what they "do" know. Unfortunately for you, you've become one of them.

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dwn2earth922 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree. I read garbage (edited) every day written by people that haven't the slightest clue of what they're talking about. Instead they should just say what they "do" know. Unfortunately for you, you've become one of them. </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, well that was the point of this whole thread. To see what those 'do know' have to say.