RichieRichJPN

Car:
Acura Integra RS (Not V-Tec)
Automatic Transmission

Problem:
The car will run fine on short drives but will not crank until the car has cooled down after about 45 minutes. The car does not overheat.
When trying to crank the car, the dash lights turn off as it pulls power from the battery and I can hear the main relay click.

Replaced Parts:
Ignition Control Module (~2K miles ago)
Ignition Coil (~2K miles)
Ignition Switch (<500 miles)
Battery (~2yrs)
Starter (~2yrs)
Engine Temperature Sensor (~2K miles)
Spark plugs (~12K miles)

Troubleshooted:
Removed Viper alarm system.
Rebuilt distributor. Verified continuity on all wires.
Tested main relay. Verified.
Fuel pump always works.
Confirmed spark only when the problem doesn't exist.
Removed grounds and cleaned contact points.
Cleaned battery posts/terminals.

The problem is completely random. It doesn't happen on all trips I take but it always requires me to wait at least 45 minutes before the car will start back up.

Everything I've been reading is pointing toward the ignitor coil or the ICM. I have replaced those already. Assuming that those are the problem AGAIN, is there a one-time solution to prevent these from getting heat soaked?
This car has become completely unreliable because of this issue and if I can't resolve it, I'm going to sell my car.
I've even followed the main relay and ignition troubleshooting diagrams and I am still where I started but with just a couple hundred dollars in the hole.
Any help appreciated.

fcm

Most likely a grounding issue, redo your main grounds, or the next time it fails to crank...
https://honda-tech.com/forums/tech-misc-15/simple-diy-start-circuit-test-%5Bbypass-jump%5D-2961164/ 94

RichieRichJPN

I measured resistance between the battery/chassis, chassis/cylinder head, CH/chassis - all measured to about .01 resistance.
I seriously doubt it though as the symptoms don't point to it.
I bypassed the starter to the battery as per said URL and the car cranks.

As you said, I'm left a confused. (I cleaned it up so I can better read it.)

Basically you're saying that either when the light comes on and remains off posits that there's a problem? So what if there isn't a problem with any of the listed components? That would mean that the light would have to be on or off - which by what you wrote, would mean there IS a problem... Maybe I completely misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Anyway, I'm going to place my bets that the problem could otherwise lie in the [starter relay, [A/T gear position switch] or wiring for the above]. Being that my car is an automatic, it doesn't have a CIS. I don't know Acura's/Honda's too well but I'm taking it that what is essentially the starter relay is actually the main relay? I did another visual inspection on the main relay and there aren't any cracked solder points. Makes me wonder if the problem is internal...
I'm still completely convinced that it's a heat sensitive component like the ICM or coil.

TurboIntegraGSR

I had a very similar issues years back, it drove me crazy for a very long time. Turned out to be a relay. Cheap fix, but I would have never guessed. Good luck,

TOO MUCH TORQUE

main relay. my 88 civic did the same

RichieRichJPN

I just pulled it out and resoldered about half of the points. Two of them looked suspect. I suppose time will tell.
Thanks for the replies.

fcm

The PGM-FI Main Relay, [main relay] has nothing to do with engine cranking.

If engine cranks when you do the bypass jump, the problem is before the starter motor/solenoid, in your case it can only be the ign. switch, automatic gear position switch or wiring between the above or to the starter solenoid.

If you did the 12V test light test and the test light did not light up when you tried to start the engine, it confirms the problem is before the starter/solenoid. 94

RichieRichJPN

I'll have to go buy a light tester and get back at a later time with the results.
Thanks again!

RichieRichJPN

One more thing...
For the automatic gear position switch, what is the best indicator for one failing? Is the D4 light supposed to blink if there is something wrong with this? Moreover, would symptoms be slipping of the transmission or worse?

RichieRichJPN

Ok, so I realized the D4 bulb was out so my initial test of running codes never gave me what I was looking for. Being a Toyota guy, I'm not used to there being a separate set of code to run (as I did under the ABS light.)
So I may have found the problem.
I'm getting ODB1 Code 9 #1 Cylinder Position Sensor. Looks like a new distributor for me :/

fcm

A bad CPS will not prevent cranking, in fact you could remove the whole distributor assembly and engine would still crank, engine starting/running is a different matter. 94

RichieRichJPN

Well that's good to know. More and more problems

RichieRichJPN

Here are my results from the light test.

Turnkey to start: Light flashes on then turns off.
Key to ON position: Light does not come on.
Maybe you can elaborate

fcm

If you do the test light test, [as per link] and you turn the ign. to start...

If test light turns on and there is no engine crank, the problem is the starter solenoid/starter.

If test light does not turn on, the problem is before the starter solenoid/motor, that may be the ign. switch itself, the A/T transmission position switch, or wiring.

You said, "Turnkey to start: Light flashes on then turns off".
Are you saying when you turn the ign. key to the start position, the test light only "blinks" on for a sec. then goes out?

If so, [blinks and goes out] does it do that every time you turn the ign. switch to start?

If so, the problem may be the ign. switch itself, test the starter wire, [black/white] at the ign. switch. 94

RichieRichJPN

Correct. When the ignition is simply on, there is no light. Once I turn the car over, the light blinks on for about half a second (or less) and turns off as the car starts to run. It does it every time I tested it.

Ok. I find it odd that even after switching out the ignition switch to a new one, I still get the same exact problem...
Is there someone after the fuse block that I can trace/test the starter wire?

fcm

Wait, what???

You said, "Correct. When the ignition is simply on, there is no light. Once I turn the car over, the light blinks on for about half a second (or less) and turns off as the car starts to run. It does it every time I tested it.

Are you saying the car does start and run, ["and turns off as the car starts to run"]????

If so, then what is the problem, I thought you said it will not crank untill it cools down??? 94

RichieRichJPN

Yes. I'm turning the car over.
No light when the ignition is on. As the key is turned and it starts to crank, the light turns on. By the time car turns over and runs, the test light turns off.

Correct on the problem. RANDOMLY, it will not crank until it cools down.
This will occur only AFTER I have driven the car around for various lengths of time. It is never consistent.
Electronics works and the main relay ticks once when I trying to crank. Nothing can be heard from the starter.
After the car has cooled down, usually after about 45 minutes, it car magically turns over.

I'm thinking that this is a heat induced problem possibly causing failure to the starter. I might rebuild it.

fcm

When you try and crank, [with key] and nothing happens, "Nothing can be heard from the starter" does a bypass jump work?

If so, the problem is not the starter or starter solenoid.

If on the other hand, if the bypass jump also will not crank the engine, then the problem is the starter motor or solenoid.

When the no crank happens, try shifting from park to neutral, if that works, replace the A/T gear position switch, if not, try "wiggling" the key a bit, back off the start position a little and then back. 94

RichieRichJPN

Being that the problem is completely random, I have not had the tools with me at the time this problem occurs to be able to test this. Pretty much the only time I know that this problem happens is when I'm out shopping and get stranded. I guess I can keep tools with me for whenever it decides to happen!

I actually tried both on my most recent stranding - neither worked. I remember seeing a video on YouTube a few months back about it on for the IGN switch...

fcm

All you need is the 12V test light and a jumper lead, the test light to do the test and the jumper to start the engine, [if the starter is not the problem]. 94

ZLboosted_EG

Had a customer come in with the same issue. Turned out to be his ignition switch assy. There was a part inside the tumbler/switch that wasn't making contact every time, and he replaced starter, battery, grounds just as you did. Replaced the ignition switch and problem hasn't returned

RichieRichJPN

Ah, didn't think that would work on the actually jumper test. Thanks

But how does that explain that power makes it past the ignition switch and activates the main relay when I'm having the no start issue?

fcm

Do you mean no "start" or no "crank"?

Again, the PGM-FI Main Relay has nothing to do with engine cranking. 94

ZLboosted_EG

I believe your ignition switch, when turned forward, controld the main relay, and the starter solenoid/relay. So just because your main relay is clicking and priming doesn't mean the other half of the circuit is functioning correctly

RichieRichJPN

Either crank or start.
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the "starter relay" was essentially in the main relay?